Serpa ND Again (California) in IDPA Equipment Questions Forum

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Serpa ND Again (California)

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Jane	Serpa ND Again (California)	Lead	[-]
Posts: 1981 Sep 18 11 4:16 PM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	Tags : None Edited in view of the following post. Jane - Expert on nothing with opinions on everything... Last Edited By: Jane Sep 18 11 5:23 PM. Edited 3 times.

Jane		#1	[-]
Posts: 1981 Sep 18 11 5:20 PM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	Received this from the match director: Hello everyone, I was the match director in Taft on Saturday. The incident is still under review and a detailed report will be completed shortly. There are several facts that are appropriate to release at this time. 1. The stage consisted of a single drop turn target that had to be activated via step plate activator. 2. As the shooter drew his S&W M&P .40 from a Serpa holster, he discharged a single round through his upper right thigh. The round traveled diagonally through his thigh about 16 inches and exited the rear of his thigh. 3. The weapon was taken from the shooter and made safe by his squads safety officer. 4. The emergency plan in place was activated. This included designating a person to call 911, two persons to physically direct first responders and CPR / First Aid certified staff to render first aid. Taft Sportsman's Club IDPA has a small trauma kit. Fortunately a shooter carries an extensive trauma kit in his bag and was able to provide scissors, pressure bandages and gauze to a shooter who is a registered nurse in Bakersfield. 5. Due to the efficiency of the emergency plan, Hall Ambulance, Kern County Fire and Taft Police were all on scene in approximately five minutes. He was transported to Kern Medical Center where he was treated and released in about four hours, without any stitches. His weapon was turned over to a friend of the shooter after Taft Police finished their investigation 6. A shooters meeting was conducted after the shooter was transported. All concerns from the remaining shooters were discussed. All of the shooters wanted to continue the match, which it was without incident. 7. I spoke with the shooter Saturday evening who was resting at home. He was thankful to the Taft IDPA for the way it was handled. He takes 100% responsibility for what happened. He did express he would not be using his Serpa holster again and that it did contribute to the negligent discharge. Ultimately it was his finger being on the trigger that caused the incident, it was accelerated by the holster design. I would request that out of respect for the shooter his name and occupation be kept as confidential as possible. He was an experienced shooter and that should suffice as a description. If you have any questions regarding this incident please contact me directly. Or contact CA IDPA Area coordinator Monte Gould. Thank you for your concerns, Joe Little. Jane - Expert on nothing with opinions on everything...
Tarkeg		#2	[-]
Posts: 582 Sep 18 11 6:37 PM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	Thanks Jane. I would bet there will come a time when SERPA's disappear. As they become more unwelcome at training opportunities, flat out banned by instructors from their classes, and discouraged by competitive shooters, Blackhawk should get the clue. Or not. Toran A27623
waktasz		#3	[-]
Posts: 1107 Sep 18 11 10:10 PM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	Amazing!! How did they release him without requiring stitches? www.youtube.com/waktasz www.Super-Tactical.com ~Matt O Former IDPA member, 2004-2013
Desert Rat		#4	[-]
Posts: 4 Sep 18 11 10:14 PM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	Because stitches were not needed.
Galekowitz		#5	[-]
Posts: 2 Sep 19 11 1:01 AM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	My name is Joe Little and I am the Match Director for the Taft IDPA. The incident report has been completed and forwarded to our area coordinator. It is available for viewing at The Taft IDPA website. It was a pretty straightforward situation. I can address any questions or concerns anyone may have regarding this incident. We are keeping the identity of the shooter confidential because it has no bearing on the incident. Obviously that information will be out there on the internet but it serves no purpose other than to rub salt in a couple of extra holes. Thanks, Joe.
Bubbiesdad.thedeserteagle		#6	[-]
Posts: 70 Sep 19 11 12:40 PM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	If the Serpa is used properly, your trigger finger will fall naturally on the frame of the gun, just under the slide. Always remember that others may hate you but those who hate you don't win unless you hate them. And then you destroy yourself. Richard M Nixon "Ain't it great to be alive and to be in Tennessee" Charlie Daniels “Owning a handgun doesn't make you armed any more than owning a guitar makes you a musician.” Jeff Cooper Non illigitamus carborundum The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government. Thomas Jefferson Last Edited By: Bubbiesdad Sep 19 11 1:26 PM. Edited 2 times.
Mark Mayo		#7	[-]
Posts: 703 Sep 19 11 1:19 PM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	Bubbiesdad wrote: If the Serpa is used properly, your triggier finger will fall naturallt on the frame of the gun, just under the slide. The apparent problems arrive when the holsters are canted on the belt. I'm not saying that it's bad system but at what point do the negatives outweigh the positives. I can't recall seeing or hearing of any issues with Safariland retention holsters inducing AD's or ND's. Mark A07211 downrange360.blogspot.com Unrepentant IDPA purist "Nine targets isn't a defensive scenario, in my book, that's combat."
Bubbiesdad.thedeserteagle		#8	[-]
Posts: 70 Sep 19 11 1:37 PM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	Mark Mayo wrote: Bubbiesdad wrote: If the Serpa is used properly, your trigger finger will fall naturally on the frame of the gun, just under the slide. "The apparent problems arrive when the holsters are canted on the belt. I'm not saying that it's bad system but at what point do the negatives outweigh the positives. I can't recall seeing or hearing of any issues with Safariland retention holsters inducing AD's or ND's." The SERPA has a channel for your finger to slide in, which is suppose to keep your finger in it's proper place. Perhaps the channel walls could be made a little larger. I still don't see blaming a holster, any more than I would blame a Glock, for a ND. I do not have a Serpa myself, however at the range today, I asked the senior range officer who is also one of the instructors there, and he got a Serpa off the shelf and showed me the operation of the holster, and also, how getting your finger out of the channel can cause a problem. As far as retention holsters go, I use Bianchis with the Finger Lok, which is released by the middle finger. Always remember that others may hate you but those who hate you don't win unless you hate them. And then you destroy yourself. Richard M Nixon "Ain't it great to be alive and to be in Tennessee" Charlie Daniels “Owning a handgun doesn't make you armed any more than owning a guitar makes you a musician.” Jeff Cooper Non illigitamus carborundum The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government. Thomas Jefferson
GOF		#9	[-]
Posts: 2123 Sep 19 11 5:41 PM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	Lttle Joe, Accidents can happen, irrespective of the holster used, and for a number of other reasons that have no bearing on holsters. It seems to me that Taft IDPA had a darned good plan for such an event, and the people on hand to make it work. Prompt and proper trauma care, and a five minute response from emergency units, IS PRETTY DARNED GOOD! A tip of the hat to your club/personnel/plan. It's something many clubs should think about.... a range accident can happen anytime to any club. Chris Last Edited By: GOF Sep 19 11 5:48 PM. Edited 1 times.
Sirveyr		#10	[-]
Posts: 1314 Sep 19 11 6:52 PM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	The blame lies squarely on the shooter. The holster is a perfectly good design. I am glad that everyone is okay.

.		#11	[-]
Posts: 74 Sep 19 11 11:21 PM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	I am glad that the experienced shooter is ok. I do disagree with others that their is no blame on the holster. This holster invites major pressure to be placed onto the button when the gun is pulled up against the retention. When a shooter uses a product incorrectly doesn't remove all responsibility from the holster design. Good holster design will remove any room for error on the part of the user. The Taft club reportedly had an emergency plan at the ready. Does any other club wish to share their plan so that other clubs could benefit. Ty Hamby A36150
Steve Cachia		#12	[-]
Posts: 42 Sep 20 11 12:35 AM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	Hi Ty, I have to respectfully disagree. The shooter took full responsibility for the ND, as he should. I totally respect him for that! While some designs might make it easier to engage the trigger, ultimately the shooter is responsible for training his or herself to complete a safe draw with their equipment. Where could you start? Single action trigger? Too easy to pull the trigger. Maybe a limit of how light you can make the trigger pull? Almost every holster manufacturer put in a blurb in the packaging materials warning the user to practice, practice, and then practice some more with their holster. They also tell you to do this by dry-firing first. There will always be room for error on the side of the shooter. That's why we practice. This is not to say that designs cannot be improved, but ultimately the shooter bears the full responsibility. I'd like to check out any copies of any emergency plans as well. Steve Steve Cachia A16127 Richmond CA IDPA Coordinator
.		#13	[-]
Posts: 74 Sep 20 11 1:44 AM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	Steve, The shooter took responsibility as he should of. One of the reasons I call the Serpa flawed is due to the fact that other holsters do not encourage a shooters trigger finger to be placed in a position to easily access the trigger area during a draw. By requiring the shooters finger next to the bang switch is the single reason I am calling it flawed. It is not optional. Other retention holsters avoid this type of finger placement. My opinion of a good holster is one that doesnt tell me where to put my big fat finger. Most all other holsters don't tell the shooter what to do with their finger. Finger placement on a Serpa holster is flawed, in my very (probably solo) opinion. I am also conserned with Serpa owners that claim "it just takes practice". Is an IDPA match the best place for a New Shooter to practice this skill. We have both watched that scary new shooter draw his gun, why add one more obsticle. I would think it would behoove a club to limit any retention device that requires such a level of training that some of the most experienced shooters are having trouble mastering. Ty Hamby A36150
Bubbiesdad.thedeserteagle		#14	[-]
Posts: 70 Sep 20 11 4:43 AM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	bombmaster wrote: Steve, The shooter took responsibility as he should of. One of the reasons I call the Serpa flawed is due to the fact that other holsters do not encourage a shooters trigger finger to be placed in a position to easily access the trigger area during a draw. By requiring the shooters finger next to the bang switch is the single reason I am calling it flawed. It is not optional. Other retention holsters avoid this type of finger placement. My opinion of a good holster is one that doesnt tell me where to put my big fat finger. Most all other holsters don't tell the shooter what to do with their finger. Finger placement on a Serpa holster is flawed, in my very (probably solo) opinion. I am also conserned with Serpa owners that claim "it just takes practice". Is an IDPA match the best place for a New Shooter to practice this skill. We have both watched that scary new shooter draw his gun, why add one more obsticle. I would think it would behoove a club to limit any retention device that requires such a level of training that some of the most experienced shooters are having trouble mastering. The design does not REQUIRE the finger next to the bang button. It puts it on the frame, below the slide. Where it is supposed to be. Ken Always remember that others may hate you but those who hate you don't win unless you hate them. And then you destroy yourself. Richard M Nixon "Ain't it great to be alive and to be in Tennessee" Charlie Daniels “Owning a handgun doesn't make you armed any more than owning a guitar makes you a musician.” Jeff Cooper Non illigitamus carborundum The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government. Thomas Jefferson Last Edited By: Bubbiesdad Sep 24 11 6:57 AM. Edited 1 times.
swatcop		#15	[-]
Posts: 36 Sep 20 11 6:20 PM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	Holster's fault-absolutely not. Regardless of what type of holster you shoot from, if you put your finger on the trigger and squeeze prematurely, you get bang. A shooters lack of trigger discipline should not be blamed on the holster. When the weapon clears the holster your finger must be moved in toward the trigger in all cases regardless of your holster choice. Matt A34505 SSP/MA ESP/MA 1 is None and 2 is 1
gr7070		#16	[-]
Posts: 1059 Sep 20 11 7:12 PM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	Holster a contributing factor? The evidence is mounting. Todd
swatcop		#17	[-]
Posts: 36 Sep 20 11 7:12 PM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	This is my first time posting pictures so hopefully it works. So I got curious and went to get one of my holsters and I played with it. I decided to provide a little evidence instead of just an opinion. Each and every time I had to physically move my finger to the trigger. Photo #1 shows a proper positioning of the trigger finger to release the gun.This not only proper but the only way to activate the release. I think picture #2 tells the story. As you can see I am still in contact with release button but look at the distance between my finger and the trigger. The holster does not put my finger on the trigger. I would have to move it to get to the trigger. Matt A34505 SSP/MA ESP/MA 1 is None and 2 is 1
shootaglockjr		#18	[-]
Posts: 232 Sep 20 11 8:07 PM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	bombmaster wrote: I am also conserned with Serpa owners that claim "it just takes practice". Is an IDPA match the best place for a New Shooter to practice this skill. We have both watched that scary new shooter draw his gun, why add one more obsticle. I would think it would behoove a club to limit any retention device that requires such a level of training that some of the most experienced shooters are having trouble mastering. A match is not the place to be learning how to use your equipment safely. That should be done at home in a safe area with an unloaded gun. I have had to pull shooters aside that I have SO'd using SERPAs and ask them to be please stop curling in their fingers. Too many new shooters try to draw quickly and it is not a smooth draw. It winds up being a jerky draw where the finger gets WAY too close to the trigger. Yes, I know that the shooter is the one in control of his finger, but I do not like the increased odds of an ND caused by this holster. Jed
Tarkeg		#19	[-]
Posts: 582 Sep 20 11 8:16 PM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	Matt, You're absolutely correct. If the proper technique is used each and every time, the trigger finger lands alongside the frame above the triggerguard. I own a SERPA for my fullsize 1911's, so I've trained with it. I also believe that the shooter is always responsible for what they do with their trigger finger. Personally, I think the only thing my trigger finger should do is work the trigger. But I think the trouble with the SERPA lies in the fact that the design itself is requiring the shooter to use their trigger finger to release the pistol in the first place. Apparently some people will curl their finger to press the release with the tip of their finger, rather than lay it along the holster on the draw. Especially when they haven't trained with it a lot, and under some kind of stress (usually speed). So while I don't think the holster caused the ND's, I do believe they contributed to them by the nature of their design. A level 2 holster has a lot of appeal to some folks, for different reasons. But I think there are better designs out there that accomplish the retention by different means, none of which require the user to manipulate anything with their trigger finger. Safariland ALS or SLS (with which i'm sure you have experience) are great examples. Bianchi has a system that uses the middle finger. If you shoot glocks, the Blade-Tech/5.11 thumb drive are great. That's also not takng into account the other issue of the holster not releasing the pistol when dirt or debris is introduced to the locking system. JMHOYMMV and all that. Good job with the pictures, I haven't done that yet either. Toran A27623
Bubbiesdad.thedeserteagle		#20	[-]
Posts: 70 Sep 20 11 9:15 PM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	Tarkeg wrote: Matt, You're absolutely correct. If the proper technique is used each and every time, the trigger finger lands alongside the frame above the triggerguard. I own a SERPA for my fullsize 1911's, so I've trained with it. I also believe that the shooter is always responsible for what they do with their trigger finger. Personally, I think the only thing my trigger finger should do is work the trigger. But I think the trouble with the SERPA lies in the fact that the design itself is requiring the shooter to use their trigger finger to release the pistol in the first place. Apparently some people will curl their finger to press the release with the tip of their finger, rather than lay it along the holster on the draw. Especially when they haven't trained with it a lot, and under some kind of stress (usually speed). So while I don't think the holster caused the ND's, I do believe they contributed to them by the nature of their design. A level 2 holster has a lot of appeal to some folks, for different reasons. But I think there are better designs out there that accomplish the retention by different means, none of which require the user to manipulate anything with their trigger finger. Safariland ALS or SLS (with which i'm sure you have experience) are great examples. Bianchi has a system that uses the middle finger. If you shoot glocks, the Blade-Tech/5.11 thumb drive are great. That's also not takng into account the other issue of the holster not releasing the pistol when dirt or debris is introduced to the locking system. JMHOYMMV and all that. Good job with the pictures, I haven't done that yet either. This is why I like the Bianchi system. Ken Always remember that others may hate you but those who hate you don't win unless you hate them. And then you destroy yourself. Richard M Nixon "Ain't it great to be alive and to be in Tennessee" Charlie Daniels “Owning a handgun doesn't make you armed any more than owning a guitar makes you a musician.” Jeff Cooper Non illigitamus carborundum The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government. Thomas Jefferson Last Edited By: Bubbiesdad Sep 24 11 6:57 AM. Edited 1 times.

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Serpa ND Again (California)

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