What constitutes a full length dust cover? in IDPA Equipment Questions Forum

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What constitutes a full length dust cover?

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RGMac

What constitutes a full length dust cover?

Lead

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Posts: 7

Jul 6 11 5:26 AM

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Haven't seen anything in the rules that defines this. I did a search on the forum and all over the web and I can't find any definitive answer to the question? Is it flush with the slide? Is it flush with the end of the barrel?

I've been told that because my pistol, which has a steel frame, has an accessory rail, (It's a CZ 75 SP01, the original CZ 75 had no rail) that this constitutes a modification, and is therefore not allowed in ESP. It's a different model number with different parts, including a completely different slide. The front and back straps have factory checkering on them. Is that a "modification"?

I'd appreciate clarification on this matter.

Regards,

Roderick

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gsbell

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Posts: 450

Jul 6 11 6:49 AM

There is a lot of info on getting the SP01 legal for ESP, it revolves around the weight. Do some searches on this forum.

Greg Bell

waktasz

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Posts: 1132

Jul 6 11 9:46 AM

Since your gun has a full length dustcover it has to make weight for SSP in order to be legal for ESP. Once you do that you will be good to go.

www.youtube.com/waktasz

www.Super-Tactical.com

~Matt O

Former IDPA member, 2004-2013

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robertbank.czechpistols82792

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Posts: 1846

Jul 6 11 10:13 AM

In order to get your gun to make weight replace the grips with Dennis Marshal thin grips or the original 75B plastic grips and use 10 round mags with the polymer bottoms. You should be below 39oz to meet SSP requirements and you should be good to go. If the gun is the SP-01 Shadow then it will be heavier and you have to replace the mag brake with an aluminum one meant for the 75B and replace the grips with Dennis Marshal thin grips. They weigh .4oz.

Take Care

Bob

Steve Koski

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Posts: 6036

Jul 7 11 12:11 AM

Somewhere Robert Ray did clarify what constitutes a FLDC, and it is basically anything shorter than 1911 length from the assembly pin. I don't recall the specifics, and am too lazy to search at present.

Koski

gr7070

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Posts: 1064

Jul 7 11 9:39 AM

Steve Koski wrote:
Somewhere Robert Ray did clarify what constitutes a FLDC, and it is basically anything shorter than 1911 length from the assembly pin. I don't recall the specifics, and am too lazy to search at present.

Koski

I remember reading the same. IIRC it was 3 1/4"???

Todd

freeidaho

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Posts: 6492

Jul 7 11 10:17 AM

I recall that definition too, but I believe it covers only the full sized 1911 pattern guns, not all gun types and barrel lengths.

In this discussion it is moot because the SP01 can have a full length dust cover since it is allowed into SSP if it meets the weight criteria. If it does that, then it is allowed in ESP. Sort of a long way around the barn, but it works.

Ken Reed

+-+ freeidaho -at- yahoo -dot- com ................................ There is a $5 fine for whining.

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robertbank.czechpistols82792

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Posts: 1846

Jul 7 11 4:29 PM

For the record the SP-01, SP-01 Shadow, SP-01 Tactical, and the Phantom all have FLDC. Only the Phantom makes weight for SSP out of the box. The others require either Dennis Marshall grips, 10 rd mags and the aluminum mag brake or plastic grips and 10 rd mags to make weight ie 39oz or less to play.

Take Care

Bob

Jim Watson

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Posts: 1065

Jul 7 11 9:07 PM

gr7070 wrote:

Steve Koski wrote:
Somewhere Robert Ray did clarify what constitutes a FLDC, and it is basically anything shorter than 1911 length from the assembly pin. I don't recall the specifics, and am too lazy to search at present.

Koski
I remember reading the same. IIRC it was 3 1/4"???

You mean like: Factory installed light rail attachments if the dust cover is no longer than 3.25 inches measured from the rear of the slide stop pin to the front of the dust cover.

That is what USPSA says for Single Stack. What are the chances of IDPA copying their definition?

RGMac

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Posts: 7

Jul 7 11 11:24 PM

I appreciate all the advise on how to make weight to qualify the pistol for SSP, I was already aware most of the methods mentioned. This will leave me with an underweight gun for ESP, with checkering on the front and backstrap, which the rules say aren't allowed. Can I cover the checkering with skateboard tape? It will actually improve grip over the checkering. Every pistol made now has some kind of texturing on the the front and back strap.

How would this apply to something like the Sig P-250 where there are a variety of frames and slide/barrel combinations.

There is a lot of ambiguity in the IDPA rule book.

The new XD 5.25 has a slide cutout to reduce weight. Where will the IDPA stand on this?

Who is the final arbiter on this stuff? I have a pretty good grasp of the English language, and from what I've read from cruising various websites, some people interpret rules in a different way than I would. 124.9999999999999999999 is not 125 for power factor calculations. Does this mean that 39.99999999999999999 oz is not overweight for SSP? 39 oz works out to 2.4375 lbs. Doesn't 40 oz.---2.5000 lbs make more sense?

I don't want to have the same conversation with a different official every time I show up at an event.

For instance, magazines. The rules say I have to use magazines all of the same size. If I'm limited to ten shots per, what difference does it make if I'm using 16, 17, or 19 shot magazines if the pistol fits in the box? Based upon the sequence of the rules regarding magazines, it looks like this is actually about magazines with a capacity of <10, but it doesn't specifically say that.

Has anyone ever taken a few of the ambiguous rules and asked 100 people to put in writing, their interpretation of that rule?

astephenson

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Posts: 108

Jul 7 11 11:51 PM

Regarding magazine capacity- The capacity rule only comes into play if the capacity of your magazines it lower than the maximum capacity of the division you're shooting.

This keeps a CDP 1911 shooter from going back and forth between 7 and 8 round magazines depending on which would let him reload in a better spot on a particular stage.

Alex S. - A26175

Jack of all trades, master of...eh...

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Shootaglock

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Posts: 2438

Jul 7 11 11:56 PM

Roderick, there is no restriction like you said on mag capacity. You can use a combination of mags, regardless of capacity as long as you load to 10. The only limitation is if you have a mag that holds less than division capacity. For example, if you have a CDP gun and use one 7 round mag and 2 8 round mags, you have to load 7 rounds in all mags. Another example would be if you chose to shoot a Glock 27, starting with it's 9 round mag, you could use 2 15 round mags for reloads, but could only load them with 9 rounds each, not the division limit of 10. All mags have to carry the same number of rounds.

Should division
capacity not be achievable because of lower magazine
capacity, load to maximum mechanical capacity of magazine
plus one (1) round in the chamber. Competitors must use the
same capacity magazines through out the competition
20
(Example: if you start with a 9 round magazine, you must use
that capacity magazine throughout the match).

I see where the wording is confusing, but it has been clarified to mean rounds in the mag, not actual capacity. Won't comment any further on the Rule Book since I left my stick in the truck.

Jimmy
A21485

.

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Posts: 74

Jul 8 11 12:02 AM

Welcome to IDPA. Rules are located on the IDPA website in the 2005 rule book. There is an adendum also located on the front bottom of the home page. There is a rules repository here on this website. You need to hunt and search for the rule you are looking for. Some guys with high post counts will come on here and give you their opinion on how they interprite the rule. It makes no matter. Just contact the MD and find out from him/her how he/she interprites the rule. They will be the one that sends you home, so only his/her rulling counts for that event. It is possible that one day we may get an updated rulebook all in one place, but for the time being this is all we have to work with. So hunt around and ignore any "so called" rulling that doesnt exist in one of the above mentioned places. Dont get confused with someones 3.25" dust cover ruling. It means nothing.
If it is not in the...
1) 2005 rulebook
2) 2010 Rules Adendum, or
3) Rules repository ,it is not an official IDPA rule. Just check with your MD and have fun. Good luck and stay safe.

Sorry to not give you all your answers that you ask. Good luck with your quest.

Ty Hamby A36150

RGMac

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Posts: 7

Jul 8 11 12:59 AM

Thanks Ty,

From the addendum: The use of the word “Modifications” also includes any factory-standard features.

From SSP rules
EXCLUDED Modifications (NON-Inclusive list):
1. Externally visible modifications other than grips or sights.
2. Robar style grip reduction.
3. Add-on magazine well opening.
4. Guide rods made of a material different from the factory part
it replaces.
5. Seattle Slug Grip Plug and similar weighted products.
6. A barrel of another caliber that is not offered in the original
factory model.
7. Slide lightening (see “slide, lightening” in glossary for
further information).
8. Checkering and stippling.
9. Refer to Appendix ONE-A. Firearms-Non-IDPA-Legal
Modifications.

How can my pistol which has checkered front and back straps, meet the qualifications for SSP and be used in ESP? How can any pistol now made (as most have some kind of grip enhancement molded into the polymer grips) be legal in SSP?

I appreciate that perhaps an attempt has been made to allow a little leeway for officials to use common sense in interpretation of the rules to ensure the spirit of of the "Founding Fathers of the IDPA" (The main goal is to test the skill and ability of the individual, not equipment or gamesmanship. “Competition only” equipment is not permitted in this sport.)

I'm not a computer genius, but I know it doesn't take a lot of effort to edit the 2005 rulebook to add the changes of the 2010 addendum and re-publish a new pdf file.

Koski said that Robert Ray apparently made a determination of what constitutes a full length dust cover. This didn't make it into the rules or the addendum????

I'm not trying to sound like jerk here, but I come from a very detail oriented military background (operating nuclear propulsion plants on submarines) where ambiguity in documents was about as rare as hen's teeth, and I just like to be clear on things.

Roderick

Shootaglock

[-]

Posts: 2438

Jul 8 11 8:12 AM

How can my pistol which has checkered front and back straps, meet the qualifications for SSP and be used in ESP? How can any pistol now made (as most have some kind of grip enhancement molded into the polymer grips) be legal in SSP?

I appreciate that perhaps an attempt has been made to allow a little leeway for officials to use common sense in interpretation of the rules to ensure the spirit of of the "Founding Fathers of the IDPA" (The main goal is to test the skill and ability of the individual, not equipment or gamesmanship. “Competition only” equipment is not permitted in this sport.)

I'm not a computer genius, but I know it doesn't take a lot of effort to edit the 2005 rulebook to add the changes of the 2010 addendum and re-publish a new pdf file.

Koski said that Robert Ray apparently made a determination of what constitutes a full length dust cover. This didn't make it into the rules or the addendum????

I'm not trying to sound like jerk here, but I come from a very detail oriented military background (operating nuclear propulsion plants on submarines) where ambiguity in documents was about as rare as hen's teeth, and I just like to be clear on things.

Roderick

Roderick, many of us have the same opinion that the Rule Book is a big problem for IDPA. Here is a link to a thread dealing with this the subject of the addendum and the use of this sight as an official source. Well, can't get it to paste , so go to the Rules Questions section here and look down about 15 threads and look at the thread titled Addendum and OFFICIAL Repository. There are numerous threads dealing with the subject, but I point you there b/c it is the most recent thread I could think of . You should like the dead horse graphics about half way through. Ty has already posted there.

Some obviously feel that the subject has been beaten to death and should be dropped. I have to agree that it gets old hearing about it, but if everyone just shut up and moved along nothing would ever get changed. While I am one that likes to see options left open for stage design etc. , I say that your frustration is warranted b/c equipment rules and other things like scoring etc. need to be as clear and uniform as possible and the answers need to be readily at hand.

I take the attitude that we should complain ( in a civil manner of course ) at any appropriate time about the way the Rules are managed and distributed. This is intended as constructive criticism. HQ might listen one of these days or they might not.

So what we are left with at this time is to enjoy IDPA as it is, hoping for improvement. I won't tell you to just accept the status quo and enjoy the sport, but I will say that there is much more to enjoy than to complain about. I enjoy the sport enough to put up with the aggravation. The very fact that I am so involved in IDPA is the very reason that I have the strong opinion that I do about the RB.

So back to the original question, yea, it is just up to the MD what a FLDC is without it being addressed in the Rule Book or until Ted posts something from Robert R. in the Clarificaiton section here. I hope you muddle through and enjoy yourself.

Jimmy
A21485

Last Edited By: Shootaglock Jul 8 11 8:49 AM. Edited 1 times.

.

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Posts: 74

Jul 9 11 2:21 AM

How can my pistol which has checkered front and back straps, meet the qualifications for SSP and be used in ESP? How can any pistol now made (as most have some kind of grip enhancement molded into the polymer grips) be legal in SSP?

Because no MD (that I am aware of)will DQ you for factory stock grip. Or I am mis-understanding the question.

I appreciate that perhaps an attempt has been made to allow a little leeway for officials to use common sense in interpretation of the rules to ensure the spirit of of the "Founding Fathers of the IDPA" (The main goal is to test the skill and ability of the individual, not equipment or gamesmanship. “Competition only” equipment is not permitted in this sport.)

You bring up a point that is the complaint of many in this sport. We just live with the 2% of the book that makes you go huh? We have discussed at length the need for clarifications to be made official. It currently is falling on deaf ears.

I'm not a computer genius, but I know it doesn't take a lot of effort to edit the 2005 rulebook to add the changes of the 2010 addendum and re-publish a new pdf file.

Thank you!!! We agree. If every scorekeeper across America can post scores weekly on their club website, IDPA could if they wanted post their clarifications to their website if they so desired. There are dozens of Email clarifications never to be seen by most members.

Koski said that Robert Ray apparently made a determination of what constitutes a full length dust cover. This didn't make it into the rules or the addendum????

See above^^

I'm not trying to sound like jerk here, but I come from a very detail oriented military background (operating nuclear propulsion plants on submarines) where ambiguity in documents was about as rare as hen's teeth, and I just like to be clear on things.

This is the part when I tell you IDPA works. It is a fun game, My wife and I shoot it multiple times a month. She tells me to shut up and shoot. In a perfect world we would have a book that left nothing to question. I do better just taking my wifes advice. So load and make ready! Lets use the 98% that works and have fun.

Ty Hamby A36150

RGMac

[-]

Posts: 7

Jul 9 11 8:59 AM

Because no MD (that I am aware of)will DQ you for factory stock grip. Or I am mis-understanding the question.

From the IDPA rules addendum:

Appendix ONE – Equipment
Clarification to A. Firearms page 18
The use of the word “Modifications” also includes any factorystandard
features.

This is the rule that allows them to call my factory standard accessory rail a "full length dust cover". But they don't apply this "logic" evenly and equally across the full spectrum of pistols used in IDPA competition.

I can use my pistol which will make weight in ESP even though it has a "full length dust cover" if I make it light enough to compete in SSP. Then I have a pistol I can use in ESP, if I give up four ounces of allowable weight. I have just been put into an "equipment race" (with myself), something the IDPA is supposed to have been founded to prevent. Why not just compete in SSP then? According to the rules, I can't compete in SSP because according to their rules, the checkering is a "modification".

Once I make my pistol light enough to compete in SSP, am I allowed to add the stock weight back on for ESP?

If the checkering is factory standard (but according to the rules addendum it's a "modification) and MD's won't DQ for that in SSP, how can they DQ for my accessory rail in ESP?

I guess what I'm asking is once I'm allowed to compete at one event, does that give me any kind of "get out of jail free card" when I go to another event where someone says my gun is not legal?

Roderick

RGMac

[-]

Posts: 7

Jul 9 11 10:18 AM

Everyone,

I don't mean to sound argumentative here, but from reading the rules, and from reading posts on this forum, it seems to me that MD's "pick and chose" which rules they enforce stringently and and which they don't. I don't want to invest my time, effort, and energy knowing I might or might not be allowed to participate at any given event.

Either that, or perhaps there should be a SSP/P (Stock Service Pistol/Polymer) division and a SSP/M (Metal) division. Because it looks like SSP is really a Glock division. The addendum's definition of "Modification" could be interpreted in such a way as to DQ Beretta pistols because they've all had their slides lightened at the factory.

I'd be happy to serve on a committee to fix the rules, and it seems many of you would as well.

Roderick

robertbank.czechpistols82792

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Posts: 1846

Jul 9 11 11:26 AM

RGMac wrote:
Haven't seen anything in the rules that defines this. I did a search on the forum and all over the web and I can't find any definitive answer to the question? Is it flush with the slide? Is it flush with the end of the barrel?

I've been told that because my pistol, which has a steel frame, has an accessory rail, (It's a CZ 75 SP01, the original CZ 75 had no rail) that this constitutes a modification, and is therefore not allowed in ESP. It's a different model number with different parts, including a completely different slide. The front and back straps have factory checkering on them. Is that a "modification"?

I'd appreciate clarification on this matter.

Regards,

Roderick

Whoever told you the accessory rail was a modification was wrong. Period. The SP-01 must make weight for SSP ie 39oz and you can get there several ways. The factory checkering is not a modification , period. The two guns are different models with two different frames.

Your SP-01 has a full length dustcover so it must make weight for SSP. Replace the grips with plastic OEM grips from the 75B and replace the mag brake with an aluminum one meant for the 75B and you should be there using 10 rd mgs. The all steel mags are to heavy. If your gun still is slightly over, and some guns still are at this point then Dennis Marshal thin grips weighing .4oz will get you down below 39oz.

You must remember your gun is only legal to play in ESP if it weighs 39oz or less due to the full length dust cover. Why? Cuz those are the rules.

Take Care

Bob

motosapiens

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Posts: 188

Feb 10 12 10:30 PM

robertbank wrote:

You must remember your gun is only legal to play in ESP if it weighs 39oz or less due to the full length dust cover. Why? Cuz those are the rules.

Actually reading the rules (carefully), that seems like a fairly bizarre interpretation of them. If that's really the interpretation and intent of the rule, the printed words ought to be changed to fit.

Fortunately, it's a good excuse to buy another gun while waiting for the rulebook to be written in english. That can't be bad.

-mark weaver

freeidaho

[-]

Posts: 6492

Feb 10 12 10:53 PM

Mark,
A gun with a steel full length dust cover is only allowed into SSP.

But a fully legal SSP gun may be shot in ESP. So that is only way to get a steel full length dust cover into ESP.

Welcome to the very best place on the internet to discuss IDPA ! ! !

Ken Reed

edited to correct error, thanks Matt

Last Edited By: freeidaho Feb 11 12 12:30 AM. Edited 1 times.

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What constitutes a full length dust cover?

What constitutes a full length dust cover?