A shooter shoots at a IDPA target and hits the stick, breaking the stick in half, and the target flopps around and is now un-shootable. Prop failure and
reshoot? Or tuff luck, shoot better and the stick will not break by it's self?
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Reshoot or no reshoot
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 PPC Eljay |
Reshoot or no reshoot |
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Posts: 254 (06/15/09 11:55:24) |
Lenny, from the west coast of NJ
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Chuck |
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Posts: 102 (06/15/09 12:06:32) |
We had a similar incident where a new shooter actually shot one of our old PVC target stands and broke it. The target was sideways but still up. Count the
round into the stick as a miss and go on.
Chuck
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Steve Koski |
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Posts: 803 (06/15/09 12:07:22) |
I would let them reshoot it, and charge them a buck for the stick.
Koski |
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freeidaho |
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Posts: 3110 (06/15/09 12:29:59) |
Lenny,
If the target is still visible and they continue to shoot the stage, I offer them a reshoot. They can take their current score or reshoot. If the target becomes un-shootable as in your case, then it seems like it has to be a reshoot. Ken Reed |
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Hot Brass |
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Posts: 599 (06/15/09 16:03:34) |
freeidaho wrote:+1
-Capel
www.gadpa.com |
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SauconValleyShooter |
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Posts: 333 (06/16/09 07:26:40) |
Good Morning,
This one happened this past Saturday at Phillipsburg. I was on the other squad and Lenny was putting away his chronograph. If I were running the shooter I would tell them too bad. The stick did not break by itself. The shooter broke the stick with a very bad shot and I would let them bask in their glory. Let's say the target is a steel plate (and I have seen this happen) and the shooter hits the plate on the edge and it turns 90 degrees. Now only the edge is facing the shooter, but the plate is required to fall. Is this a re-shoot? What Lenny is asking about is the same thing. The shooter caused the target to be un-shootable (probably not a word). Thank you, Ken |
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Steve Koski |
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Posts: 805 (06/16/09 07:44:43) |
It's definitely a judgement call. Poor target/prop design causes a target to become unshootable. Unless their are clear rules about how to deal with this
spelled out in advance (like "edgers" on steel targets with feet), then I believe the benefit should go to the shooter. There's nothing in the
rulebook that says "if the shooter accidentally causes a target to be unshootable, too bad, it's his fault, no help given." It's much closer
to the range/prop failure case, where re-shoots are allowed.
To complicate the question a bit, I have seen where one target's "leg" was positioned directly behind another target (this was at a USPSA match). I pointed this out to the RO during the stage walk through, who said it shouldn't be a problem. When it was eventually my turn to shoot, my first shot at the closer target dropped the rear target on it's side. I shot the fallen target like normal and finished the stage (that was the last or second to last target). The RO made me take a re-shoot, even though I didn't want it. 48 round field course = 100 rounds of ammo burned up on one stage, and I shot it worse the second time around! Koski |
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Radome |
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Posts: 144 (06/16/09 11:44:31) |
Circumstances seem to drive the correct answer here but laughter accompanies both options.
I think I have developed a belief that reshoots are never as good as the first run. At least for me. Ken your post reminded me of a match in our club where there were 8" plates sitting on top of a steel bar. LolliPop. One shooter took 7 hits on one plate to knock it on the ground. Each hit spun the plate and failed to knock it down until the 7th shot. It is urban legend now and he still is ribbed about it. I am,,, RICK |
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Steve Koski |
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Posts: 809 (06/16/09 12:22:27) |
Funny addition to my tale...A FBI agent on the squad ribbed me about shooting a downed man. I told him he was still in the fight and I had to finish him off.
Koski |
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pencorco |
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Posts: 13 (06/17/09 15:23:47) |
I ran into the same problem with the steel targets at this years Frozen Penguin. They used a steel leg to hold up a hidden cardboard target. You were required
to shoot the leg out, hence dropping the target on its side and becoming visible. I shot the steel leg, which was app. 3" wide X 12" high, on the
side which rotated it 90 degrees. This created a 1/4" x 12" shooting area. I then proceeded to unload 3 clips trying to drop it. At the end I
didn't make a stink but was given the option to re-shoot.
My point is that I was required to shoot this portion of the target to continue with the scenario. The activator failed to activate the target. The spinning of the plate was not an intentional part of the scenario. Thus it could be perceived as equipment failure. In the scenario where a person shoots the wooden portion of the target stand and renders the target unshootable, I think there should be no re-shoot because the wooden portion was not a required target for the scenario. These are only my opinions and are normally not shared by others.
Daryl
A34278 |
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robertbank.czechpistols82792 |
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Posts: 266 (06/18/09 10:16:46) |
pencorco wrote: If that is your view how do you score the target? Ignore it and move on? 2 misses and a FTN? Seems to me if the shooter has no target to shoot you can hardly fault him for failing to engage or dispatch the target. Take Care Bob
Your Signature ... http://www.idpacanada.com
Last Edited By: robertbank
06/18/09 16:22:29.
Edited 1 times.
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pencorco |
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Posts: 14 (06/18/09 12:19:53) |
I would score the target as if it were still in the correct position. If shooting the post caused the shooter to be unable to neutralize the target then
that's how it should be scored. If it was a misdirected head shot of a "2 body 1 head" set up, then it's just -5.
These are only my opinions and are normally not shared by others.
Daryl
A34278 |
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FieldShunt |
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Posts: 12 (06/18/09 15:01:44) |
I believe this is a course failure.
In USPSA, as mentioned above, it's a no-question reshoot. That's the way the rule's written. What's the important factor here is that the target stand has failed. All of our props are designed to keep working properly even if struck by a bullet, including target stands. They're designed to be able to withstand the occasional hit, and good ones do. The critical point is that once the stand has failed, the course is no longer the same for the shooter; he or she is not getting the same presentation as the other shooters, and that's inherently unfair. It's the same thing as a clamshell that wasn't reset or a popper that's jammed up. Since there's no other penalty for a shot that misses per se (there only is if the shooter fails to make up for the miss), it's not an error. No penalty (a less-shootable target) should ensue. Bill |
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Diesel doc |
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Posts: 143 (06/18/09 15:55:16) |
The way I read this, he shot the target wood stake into. So how does USPSA call this a prop failure. Dont think they have bullet proof stakes.
Herb A-20721
If you don't know your rights, you don't have any! |
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FieldShunt |
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Posts: 14 (06/18/09 16:04:31) |
The stand failed because it no longer held the target in the proper position.
Like I said, we expect our target stands to withstand bullet strikes. In every match, there's lot of them, and nothing noticeable happens. In the case mentioned at the start, something did happen: the stand no longer held the target in the correct position. Since the target was not intended to move or disappear, and it did not move or disappear for any of the other shooters, then the shooter was not given the exact same presentation of targets and props as every other. That's the basis for range failure rulings. |
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Diesel doc |
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Posts: 144 (06/18/09 16:07:33) |
The stand did not fail, he shot the stick into. Go back and read the first post.
Herb A-20721
If you don't know your rights, you don't have any! |
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robertbank.czechpistols82792 |
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Posts: 267 (06/18/09 16:26:47) |
Diesel doc wrote:Here is the first post "A shooter shoots at a IDPA target and hits the stick, breaking the stick in half, and the target flopps around and is now un-shootable. Prop failure and reshoot? Or tuff luck, shoot better and the stick will not break by it's self? " The target was unshootable. Seems clear enough to me what he said. Like it or not I think he gets a reshoot. The wooden stick holding the target is part of the prop. It failed. so the rule book says reshoot. Take Care Bob
Your Signature ... http://www.idpacanada.com
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pencorco |
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Posts: 15 (06/18/09 19:49:27) |
So if I'm shooting a COF and I don't like the way I'm doing I can just shoot one of the target clips so the target falls or the stand fails. Then
I'll be able to re-shoot the stage.
I would never do this at a match. But I would not like the precedence to be set that you can re-shoot the stage if you CAUSE a "prop failure". Wouldn't that be the same as sticking a dummy round in my clip to create a mag failure to allow a speed reload when one is normally not allowed? These are only my opinions and are normally not shared by others.
Daryl
A34278 |
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Diesel doc |
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Posts: 145 (06/18/09 19:55:40) |
That was my point. If you tank the stage, just shoot a stick into and get a re-shoot. I build target stands for both USPSA and IDPA and they are not
bullet proof.
Herb A-20721
If you don't know your rights, you don't have any! |
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freeidaho |
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Posts: 3125 (06/18/09 22:08:52) |
But, but, but, there is one thing bothering me about the no-reshoot hard line y'all are proposing. We use 1" x 2" lath to hold up our targets.
And one bullet hole will not break them. It takes two or three in the same proximity to break the stick.
So the first guy that hit the stick is not penalized. And the second guy that hit the stick is not penalized. But the third guy, y'all claim should not get a reshoot because the stick broke. Seems inequitable to me. So I'm still thinking: If the target is still visible and they continue to shoot the stage, I offer them a reshoot. They can take their current score or reshoot. If the target becomes un-shootable as in this case, then it seems like it has to be a reshoot. Respectfully, Ken Reed PS: I'd like to see the "break the stick and get a reshoot" tact tried. Recall it takes more than one hit. Of course if one could hit right next to an existing bullet hole it might work. And if you can pull that off, at speed so you don't draw an FTDR, I'd really like to see it. Video please. 
Last Edited By: freeidaho
06/18/09 22:12:06.
Edited 1 times.
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Steve Koski |
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Posts: 820 (06/18/09 23:04:57) |
Some 1x2's with knots in them will break with one well/poorly placed shot. I don't know what that has to do with anything.
Give the guy a friggin' re-shoot. This is a very gray area, unadressed by the rule book, the COF description, or known club protocol, so the decision should be made in favor of the shooter. Koski |
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