Cover and Attack Dogs

RSS
Email

0 Kudo

Forum Jump

Author	Comment
JohninBC.czechpistols82792	Cover and Attack Dogs	Lead	[-]
Posts: 11 (06/03/09 15:55:21) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	Tags : None Hi guys, Sorry in advance if this already been covered somewhere I don't understand how the rules regarding remaining behind cover are used with regards to scenarios involving attack dogs and their owners: Scenario 1: You are in the park. Some nasty dudes sick their attack dogs on your kid. When they see you pull your weapon they produce theirs and open fire. My take on this is you have to take whatever cover is available, take out the nasty dudes but then you can break cover to finish off the dogs. My reasoning is - dogs don't shoot back and when shooting in the general direction of your kid the closer you are to the target the better. I also question whether there is any requirement to maintain cover while reloading. Same reasoning as before. How do the rules apply here? Scenario 2: You are out for a walk. A very bad man sicks his attack dog on you. Since the dog does not have a gun there is no requirement to take cover. You draw and take out the dog. The very bad man becomes perturbed, produces a firearm and shoots at you. At this point you must take cover as, or before, you return fire. What do you think? My take on this one is you do not have to take cover while shooting the dog. Once the very bad man pulls his weapon you must take cover as, or before, returning fire. Regards, John
SixShooterPerry		#1	[-]
Posts: 117 (06/03/09 16:29:49) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	John, Just make the stage description clear and tell the shooter what you want them to do and the reason behind it. Both scenarios would work fine. Scenario 1 - Engage BG from cover then engage dog(s) while moving forward, backwards, whatever to avoid hitting NT. Scenerio 2 - Draw and engage dog(s) then retreat to cover and engage BG. Nice 4 shot stage! Perry
JohninBC.czechpistols82792		#2	[-]
Posts: 12 (06/04/09 07:28:17) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	Okay, so you don't need to maintain cover while engaging attack dogs but what about reloads? In Sc.1 after you engage the BG's from cover do you have to remain behind cover if you need to reload. I know the rulebook says all reloads must be from cover, but....if the badguys are down why are you hiding. In real life you would be moving towards your kid as you reload to ensure closer shots and less chance of hitting the wrong target. I don't know how rationalize the rules with 'reality". Or does it matter...the rules are the rules and they don't have to make sense? Regards, John
Glockaholic Girl		#3	[-]
Posts: 93 (06/04/09 12:21:23) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	Why are they always attack DOGS? There are feral cats that are pretty dangerous, you know. Big city rats aren't that fun, either.... Kitty Richards Si vis pacem, para bellum - Flavius Vegetius Renatus Guns are like shoes - a woman should have a pair in every caliber "Dude, you say 'militia' like it's a bad thing..."
Steve Koski		#4	[-]
Posts: 791 (06/04/09 12:59:59) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	I think all reloads should be from on top of a mini-van or up a tree in attack dog stages. Koski
Howard B		#5	[-]
Posts: 29 (06/05/09 06:22:17) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	I remember a stage once in Anderson SC where you sat in a boat and they said they were rabid alligators instead of dogs. But the lack of water made it hard to get into the mental picture zone...... Howard
robertbank.czechpistols82792		#6	[-]
Posts: 243 (06/05/09 10:02:36) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	JohninBC wrote: Okay, so you don't need to maintain cover while engaging attack dogs but what about reloads? In Sc.1 after you engage the BG's from cover do you have to remain behind cover if you need to reload. I know the rulebook says all reloads must be from cover, but....if the badguys are down why are you hiding. In real life you would be moving towards your kid as you reload to ensure closer shots and less chance of hitting the wrong target. I don't know how rationalize the rules with 'reality". Or does it matter...the rules are the rules and they don't have to make sense? John if cover is available you must use it unless the stage sets up where you are out in the open and you must engage the gogs while retreating to cover. Once behind cover you must do your reload behind it. In real life do you want to be out in the open with an unloaded gun and not know where the next BG is coming from or the next dog in your case? Remember we are playing a game here and the game has rules. You cannot design a stage description that would say you can leave cover with an unloaded gun and do your reload in the open. Take Care Bob Your Signature ... http://www.idpacanada.com
freeidaho		#7	[-]
Posts: 3098 (06/05/09 10:31:33) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	John, Another way to think about it is this. If there is cover anywhere in the stage, you have to use if for reloading. Here is a clarification from HQ http://idpaforum.yuku.com/topic/2073 It doesn't matter what you were doing prior to needing to reload, or after. It doesn't matter how many targets there are, or how they are arranged. It doesn't matter what the scenario description says, or how far away that cover may be. Given that, there are several situations where a COF designer can really mess up the shooters. These situations generally having to do with firing more than six shots in the open, with cover somewhere in the stage. The revolver shooters will run out of ammo in the open, and not have engaged all the targets. They will then have to go to cover, reload, and then engage the remaining targets from where they left off. Ken Reed Last Edited By: freeidaho 06/05/09 10:44:51. Edited 1 times.
JohninBC.czechpistols82792		#8	[-]
Posts: 13 (06/05/09 12:08:23) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	Thanks guys, If I have this right you must use available cover for engaging bad guys and for reloads. You Do Not have to use cover to engage critters who shoot back such as rabid dogs or hungry gators.... Regards, John
robertbank.czechpistols82792		#9	[-]
Posts: 244 (06/05/09 12:12:25) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	John if cover is available on the stage you MUST use it unless the stage starts you out in the open orcalls for shots to be engaged in the open eg while moving to cover. Take Care Bob Your Signature ... http://www.idpacanada.com
JohninBC.czechpistols82792		#10	[-]
Posts: 14 (06/05/09 21:07:02) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	robertbank wrote: John if cover is available on the stage you MUST use it unless the stage starts you out in the open orcalls for shots to be engaged in the open eg while moving to cover. Take Care Bob Well...you seem to be the only one who thinks so. Why would you need cover to shoot at critters? You don't. Scenarios have to make some sort of sense..according to COF guidelines they should reflect real life. If a group of dogs are attacking someone, your child or whoever, you are not going to stand 10 or 20 yds away behind a tree and shoot, you are going to get close and make every shot count. How do I know?? Because I have been there. I didn't have a gun, I had a pipewrench, but my first instinct was clear and would have been no different if I had a gun. Only difference is they wouldn't have been able to run away. While IDPA is a game and some of the rules are rather arbitrary, and sometimes seem a little silly, its saving grace, for me, is the attempt to reflect real life scenarios. Telling someone they have to hide behind cover to shoot some dogs is simply stupid. If there is no threat from a human attacker there is no need for cover. Seems simple to me. And, most importantly, it makes sense in the real world. Regards, John
robertbank.czechpistols82792		#11	[-]
Posts: 245 (06/05/09 22:46:25) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	JohninBC wrote: robertbank wrote: John if cover is available on the stage you MUST use it unless the stage starts you out in the open orcalls for shots to be engaged in the open eg while moving to cover. Take Care Bob Well...you seem to be the only one who thinks so. Niope you better go back and reread some of the posts. Why would you need cover to shoot at critters? You don't. Depends what the stage says and what the stage consists of. Scenarios have to make some sort of sense..according to COF guidelines they should reflect real life. Yup. If a group of dogs are attacking someone, your child or whoever, you are not going to stand 10 or 20 yds away behind a tree and shoot, you are going to get close and make every shot count. How do I know?? Because I have been there. I didn't have a gun, I had a pipewrench, but my first instinct was clear and would have been no different if I had a gun. Only difference is they wouldn't have been able to run away. So what is your point? While IDPA is a game and some of the rules are rather arbitrary, and sometimes seem a little silly, its saving grace, for me, is the attempt to reflect real life scenarios. Yes You might want to reread what I wrote. "John if cover is available on the stage you MUST use it unless the stage starts you out in the open or calls for shots to be engaged in the open. In your dog scenario why would you retreat to cover if all you are faced with are dogs. All depends on the stage design. In you r scenario 1 you would have to do your reload behind cover if it is available. In your scenario 2 you would be shooting the dogs from where ever you are standing. After that it depends on what the stage instructions are. eg. 1. After taking out the dog the BG draws a pistol engage BG while moving to cover of X or 2. Move to cover of X and engage BG or Engage BG where you are. Your take on Scenario 2 was correct. You can write the stage pretty much as you like. The stipulation being the reloads if they are called for because your gun is empty or nearly so must be done behind cover if cover is available if cover is not available then you obviously can't. Stage design is very important. Ken mentions just one example where the stage designor can mess up shooters. There are more. CofF 9 - "When cover is available, it MUST be used both when shooting and reloading." Take Care Bob Your Signature ... http://www.idpacanada.com Last Edited By: robertbank 06/06/09 10:11:34. Edited 1 times.
Sandy Wylie		#12	[-]
Posts: 15 (06/07/09 13:34:36) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	The rules are very clear on this point, if cover is on the stage it must be used and yes the rules are the rules. When designing or shooting stages it is in everyone's best interest to stay "within the rules". It helps to remember that IDPA is a shooting sport not a tactical competition. Sandy Wylie IDPA AC AK/OR/WA
Steve Koski		#13	[-]
Posts: 793 (06/07/09 18:21:44) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	So we need: Good course design, including the absence of cover where it would be inappropriate. Good course descriptions. Simple enough. Koski Last Edited By: Steve Koski 06/14/09 19:59:30. Edited 1 times.
robertbank.czechpistols82792		#14	[-]
Posts: 247 (06/07/09 18:28:28) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	Steve there is your answer in a nutshell. Designors have an idea for a stage, then want to change the rules to suit their stage. Best to review the rules for course design then design the stage around the rules. Kind of a horse and cart thing. Take Care Bob Your Signature ... http://www.idpacanada.com
Bones		#15	[-]
Posts: 558 (06/14/09 15:44:08) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	It might be a worthwhile exercise to see how many times the rulebook indicates available cover must be used for reloading or engaging threats (biped, quadraped, finned, winged, etc). I count 7, some in italics and some bold. Don't over complicate a simple rule. You won't be doing yourself or your club members any favors. Arguing that the threat(s) had an unloaded gun, or a knife, or a jam, or myopia, or are dead, etc. will not help you at a major match. Trust me on this one. Craig

<< Previous Topic Next Topic >>

Yuku free message boards

Cover and Attack Dogs

Cover and Attack Dogs

Quick Reply