What do our yearly dues pay for?

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9MM Guy	What do our yearly dues pay for?	Lead	[-]
Posts: 33 (05/29/09 12:43:02) More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	Tags : None I am about to renew my membership and am wondering what the dues really pay for. I'd like to start by saying that I would not trade the freinds I have met through IDPA for anything, That is not the focus of my gripe. I get a quarterly magazine, written largely by member submissions, and nothing else. A poorly written rule book that dates 2005, A really lousy website. No Forum, No real match support, other than when the AC comes to the match, though he is a volunteer, ( and a nice guy and a heck of a shooter) They don't put on a postal match. I know that there is an HQ office, and I know they are nice people working there, but what could they have to do? Update memberships, occasionally admit a new club, send out magazines. Is it too much to ask that the rule book be edited to have clear and concise language? Organizing the postal match would be a great thing. Our club loved it as did many others. I was surprized to find out that it was done by a club rather than HQ. Is my gripe out of line? John Knoff Oceanside Practical Pistol Club. Competitve shooting in Southern California. oceansidepistol.com
freeidaho		#1	[-]
Posts: 3076 (05/29/09 13:21:05) More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	John, The simple answer is that yearly dues pay for everything. Without them, there would have been no IDPA. No one would be shooting IDPA anywhere in the country, not one single match, no one would have ever heard the string of letters IDPA without yearly dues. The entire "thing" we think of as IDPA is funded by yearly dues. IDPA exists because of yearly dues. Personally I am delighted to pay my yearly dues to be able to shoot IDPA locally and in almost every state I might drive through, because IDPA exists. I am delighted to be able to choose from over 50 sanctioned matches and the Nationals to go to, because IDPA exists. It is one of the bargains in my years worth of purchases. Your post trivializes almost everything about IDPA, and it sounds like you could do it better. Let me know how John's Defensive Pistol Association works out. When you have grown it to 20000 members world wide, then lets chat again. It probably isn't as easy, or inexpensive as you currently think. Ken Reed
RobMoore		#2	[-]
Posts: 338 (05/29/09 14:11:19) More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	Ken, I haven't been in the sport long enough to know the answer to this question. Are the positions in IDPA elected (president, area coordinators, ect), or are those slots chosen by other means? Couldn't John seek satisfaction by campaigning for a position next cycle, win or lose its an outlet for his frustration. JDPA could be option #2.
freeidaho		#3	[-]
Posts: 3077 (05/29/09 14:29:58) More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	Rob, IDPA is a privately held corporation. So making a compelling arguement to HQ or your AC is the way to influence the way IDPA works. I know, it is hard work, but it often works well. Most changes in IDPA come from positive suggestions backed up by logic or data, or both. A whiney negative arguement will not work. I liken it to writing to Ford Motor Company and chastising them for their choice of ring gap specs on their Mustang motor. Ken Reed Last Edited By: freeidaho 05/29/09 14:43:37. Edited 2 times.
cnelson181		#4	[-]
Posts: 13 (05/29/09 15:33:14) More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	Ken, You didn't answer the question.?? I love IDPA. I've been a member for 8yrs - no complaints. I've shot at multiple sanctioned matches and had a great time. I understand it's a privately held corporation, but......................that privately held co. is making big bucks. 20,000 members x $40 annual fee = $800,000yr. another $200,000 a yr for club affiliation dues = $1,000,000 a yr. $1,000,000 a yr to recieve a very nice published magazine is great. But, where is the rest. I know they employ a small staff at headquarters, but...... Are they spending a good amount on advertising?? Just some food for thought. Not bashing or anything, I think they do an awesome job, but sometimes numbers don't add up. Someone is making some serious dough on this. +1 Thanks Ken. I just wish they would be a little more open about it all. I've wondered about this too. I understand that you're a champion for IDPA and bleed it like a lot of other folks here do too, but sometimes you have to ask questions. Craig N... There are no stupid questions, just stupid people. Last Edited By: cnelson181 05/29/09 15:39:27. Edited 1 times.
Steve Koski		#5	[-]
Posts: 783 (05/29/09 16:37:35) More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	Here are some things IDPA monies do: Develops and maintains rules Pay for offices and staff to answer questions & send out memebership stuff Manages AC's etc. Quarterly newsletter Develop and manage a training program for SO's Provide SO training materials at low prices ($5 each) Develop and maintain website, scores, classifications, etc. Others?
Scuba Simpleton		#6	[-]
Posts: 127 (05/29/09 16:53:42) More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	IDPA also generates income from sponsorships and advertising on the website and Tactical Journal. Each major match pays a $50 sanctioning fee. Five Division Classification also costs $50. All manufacturers of IDPA targets pay a royalty to IDPA for each target made. Bill Wilson owns IDPA and Robert Ray runs it the way Bill Wilson wants it run. Bob
9MM Guy		#7	[-]
Posts: 34 (05/29/09 18:00:24) More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	Ken, Your post trivializes almost everything about IDPA, and it sounds like you could do it better. Let me know how John's Defensive Pistol Association works out. When you have grown it to 20000 members world wide, then lets chat again. It probably isn't as easy, or inexpensive as you currently think. It is not my intention to start a new sport. I have been active in several state matches in their organization, a match director on the local level and travel to several local/state matches. My bone of contention is this: What are we paying for? At this point paying IDPA HQ for the priviledge of shooting IDPA is what I think we are mostly doing. It is no differrent that paying the guy(s) that invented bowling, everytime you go bowling. A whiney negative arguement will not work. Do I owe a debt of gratitude to Bill and his staff, you bet. Could they do it better, yes. This is not a situtation where everyone who disagrees with me is evil, but rather that I have a genuine question that I would like resolved. Points made about trainning ROs are on topic, though I paid to take the class. I don't think that because I have a question that rubs some the wrong way that I am whiney. Call it what you will. John Knoff Oceanside Practical Pistol Club. Competitve shooting in Southern California. oceansidepistol.com
Steve Koski		#8	[-]
Posts: 784 (05/29/09 18:06:58) More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	John, Your bowling analogy is incorrect. If you bowl competitively, and want to belong to a national organization that sets competition rules, maintains handicaps, etc. you will likely need to join that organization and pay annual dues. If you just want to go toss some balls down the lane with your buddies, no need to join an organization. Golf is no different, nor is swimming, or about any competitive organization that I can think of. No need to join anything if you just want to goof off by yourself, but if you want to be part of something bigger, there is a small price to pay. Koski
9MM Guy		#9	[-]
Posts: 35 (05/29/09 18:41:53) More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	Whether competitive bowlers pay dues and get their money's worth is not my concern. My concern is I am getting the most bang for my IDPA buck.Without Bill Wilson and the gang there would be no IDPA as we know it today. Are we paying membership dues or are we paying tribute? Oceanside Practical Pistol Club. Competitve shooting in Southern California. oceansidepistol.com
freeidaho		#10	[-]
Posts: 3078 (05/29/09 19:46:05) More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	John, I used the whiney word because your whole post was negative and one sided, with no attempt to gather relevant data or to be fair. You didn't spend much time on anything constructive, like "I want x or y or z for my dues? You know, something that could be evaluated and maybe even implemented. But that aside, let me try another tact. You can figure out the value of IDPA to you, by seeing what you lose if you don't pay dues. You would be unable to participate in any IDPA match anywhere in the world. No local matches, no sanctioned matches, no Nats, no classification... nothing IDPA. That would be a great loss to me personally, so I gladly pay the dues. So basically, you get all of IDPA everywhere when you pay dues. Don't pay dues and loose all of IDPA everywhere. Everyone needs to decide for themselves. I hope you decide to stay because there is a lot of value for very little dues. It is the cost of two or three movies, and they certainly do not provide the entertainment value of IDPA over a full year. Furthermore I know of no private corporation that opens their books to the public or their customers. The customers make their decision on the product or service based on what they get versus the purchase price. Where do the funds go when you buy a box of Cheerios, furniture, clothes, a car.... anything. The answer is you don't know. You evaluate the product versus the cost and decide to buy or not. As an example, try going down to the local mechanic, with the same attitude in your post and say, what do I get for my fee, and imply to him that his business is mis-managed, inferior and too expensive. I'd pay to be there for that. I write this because you know that IDPA HQ personel read this forum and yet you go out of your way to disrespect them with your post. Additionally, IDPA is a good deal for most clubs. Their range and improvements are funded by the difference between what it costs to run a local match and the entry fee. Fifty shooters paying $10 each, is $500 and that match may use up $50 of targets, tape and score sheets. The club sends no funds to HQ as is done in many other shooting sports. They now have $450 profit to reinvest in the club, props, steel, etc. But again most clubs aren't going to open their books to you either. Your thoughts? Ken Reed Last Edited By: freeidaho 05/29/09 20:05:30. Edited 1 times.
9MM Guy		#11	[-]
Posts: 36 (05/29/09 20:32:18) More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	Ken, Based on your mechanic example, if the guy is the only guy with access to the parts/services I need, I guess I have to either pay up or move on. Your take it or leave it approach to IDPA creates a false dilemma. What I hear you saying, and correct me if I am wrong, that we as members have take it or leave it. I do believe by asking these questions, and I know Robert Ray read this forum, IDPA has the info needed to know what they could do better and what the mind set is of the membership. My intent was NEVER to harm those who work in the trenches of the organization, or those that work matches on any level. Nowhere did I disrespect the fine people that work in the HQ, I did state that I wondered what it is that they do. But that aside, let me try another tact. You can figure out the value of IDPA to you, by seeing what you lose if you don't pay dues. You would be unable to participate in any IDPA match anywhere in the world. No local matches, no sanctioned matches, no Nats, no classification... nothing IDPA. I guess a better question I could have posed is: What is our membership worth to IDPA HQ? I guess I have lost sight of the fact that IDPA is a private corp, not a non profit. But I will end on a positive suggestion. Why doesn't IDPA HQ, ( perhaps they are but I haven't heard about it) working on getting behind what was a great success, the postal match? It is a clear winner for membership and the clubs, and friendly to the pocketbook as it negates the need to travel long distances to compete with a larger group. When is IDPA HQ going to update the rulebook? I'll help. IDPA has alot going for it. USPSA is getting a clue with its' production class. I like that I can buy a gun at the local gunshop and run it in a match, no tweaking needed to be competitive. I like the IDPA shooters mindset. Ken, I have read many of your posts on this forum and know you are a fixture here in much grerater standing than my own. I admire your dedication and most of your positions, but I think that I and others have made our concerns correctly known and wonder what will be done to address them. Oceanside Practical Pistol Club. Competitve shooting in Southern California. oceansidepistol.com
Steve J		#12	[-]
Posts: 200 (05/29/09 20:58:14) More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	John, the postal match like all matches, local and sanctioned, is organized by volunteers. It's a lot of work. If the guys that have been willing to do it the last two years, can't get to it this year that's too bad. If someone else needs to step up, it will be guys like you, me, Steve and Ken, not IDPA HQ. IDPA HQ has absolutely nothing to do with the organizing and running of matches. Support in certain ways yes, but the running of the matches is up to us. Steve J A17557
freeidaho		#13	[-]
Posts: 3080 (05/29/09 22:59:51) More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	John, Yes, I guess "take it or leave it" is the derogatory way to paraphrase what I said. What I said is that IDPA is a product that has a cost. Buy it, if it provides value to you. Right now it seems to be providing value to about 20000 shooters and growing. I'm glad to be one, and I hope you are too. IDPA isn't the only mechanic in town. USPSA, GSSF, ICORE, various 3-Gun competitions, TSA, and TDSA come to mind. As you know I prefer IDPA, but dabble in some of the rest. But my point about the mechanic was one of attitude and how you might get thrown out if you approached someone in person that way. Everytime I have called IDPA HQ or been around that staff, they are bustin their butt. There is no other way to describe it. Just because people do not know how hard they work, or on what, doesn't mean there isn't too much to do at HQ already. I don't know what you can expect from HQ with respect to your concerns. I'd bet they will not let you audit their books, or assign tasks at HQ, and that seems to in the end be what you are asking for. Let me go philosophical for a minute. The postal match is an interesting situation. What if the original post in this thread was a compelling discussion with accompanying research on how we could make the Postal Match a for sure yearly thing. (It is only dead because the previous work horses are pulling other wagons this year.) A post about how to distribute the load, get more/different people involved. You know, ways to make it work. Just a what if.... Ken Reed
CDP45		#14	[-]
Posts: 5 (05/29/09 23:37:39) More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	Ken. You nailed it. IDPA is not the only mechanic in town. With the addition of Single Stack and Production division in USPSA, IDPA needs to clean up their shop. IDPA has lost many members due to USPSA's acknowledgement of potential new shooters in Single Stack and Production. IDPA needs to listen to it members on new ideas. Rule book comes is the 1st thing that comes to mind. As a member from the very beginning, I have seen good things come from IDPA. But, since 2005, I have seen many shooters crossing over to USPSA. Am I one. Yes. So. Are we going to take our vehicle to a shop that uses new parts or take it to a mechanic that gets parts from a Junk Yard. Price is the same. John, you have raised a very good question. Stick to your guns. Charles D A00693
9MM Guy		#15	[-]
Posts: 37 (05/29/09 23:39:34) More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	I do not believe that my "take it or leave it" commment is negative or loaded language. I have neither the skill or desire to examine the books. But that does not preclude me from asking what the dues pay for. The points I made in my original post are on target: A lousy website and no forum, a magazine made up largely from submissions. I have learned from this thread that I had forgotten about the RO trainning and certifaction. I have taken the classes and are glad that they were there for me and our club. I still think that IDPA could do more with our dues money. I could have posted my inquiry in a bunch of other forums but brought it here because largely because of those who post and the civil nature conduct on this forum. It is my hope that I have not offended anyone on this forum. In closing I want to say that my hat is off to those who put the postal match on in the past. It was a blast. I wish HQ would get behind it with its' resourses. Oceanside Practical Pistol Club. Competitve shooting in Southern California. oceansidepistol.com
Scuba Simpleton		#16	[-]
Posts: 128 (05/30/09 00:21:55) More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	You have to realize that IDPA is run by no more than five people. Really, two. Everyone else is along for the ride. No one gets a vote and contrary opinions are dismissed out of hand. It is a great sport, intent on alienating its customers, clients, participants, whatever. We are not members because we have no rights other than continuing to pay dues. We can pay, volunteer and support. We can do something else. There are the options. Personally, I think the postal match is a crock. We tried to run it and found the COFs to be so flawed that they were begging to be gamed. Bob
RobMoore		#17	[-]
Posts: 339 (05/30/09 08:48:51) More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	IDPA is not the only mechanic in town. With the addition of Single Stack and Production division in USPSA, IDPA needs to clean up their shop. This is the side of the argument I'm in agreement with. The first post may have been in poor form, but it still sparked this line of discussion. I think with cooler heads and a healthy spoonful of manners it can be a useful topic. With the addition of Single Stack, and Production, IDPA is no longer in the position of filling the huge void that once brought it so much membership. It is still the biggest game requiring the use of cover, and while it openly says it encourages practical concealed carry setups, the rules still allow very hard to conceal kydex belt holsters, and tactical vests. Being competitive encourages the use of that equipment. You don't NEED to use it to be competitive, but you are starting a step behind using IWB with a shirt over it. So basically, IDPA is production with a vest on, no speed reloads, shorter courses of fire, and a few more rules to remember. However, equal to USPSA in customer service? IDPA is not. I think the idea is that IDPA needs to take a look at where they are deficient as an organization and work to correct it, now that they don't hold the monopoly on "straight of the showroom floor" shooting. I think the membership also wants some transparency. Let us know what is in the works. I don't subscribe to the "If you don't like it, go elsewhere" mentality, but the reasons to hold two memberships get smaller in number each year. Someday they may get small enough.
tnroadrunner		#18	[-]
Posts: 20 (05/31/09 08:34:24) More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	I first started in IDPA in 2004 and a few years later also joined USPSA. But after several years in USPSA and I decided to drop out and just shoot IDPA and 3 Gun. If and when I have any comments or suggestions I would make them directly to IDPA HQ and let them respond. Every time I get the TJ I think there is something more that could be added. Until I come up with something I feel would be constructive I will keep my mouth shut. Just my two cents. Bob TFA, NRA, IDPA, 3 GUN It's always a great day. If you don't believe me try missing one.
RobMoore		#19	[-]
Posts: 340 (05/31/09 08:55:25) More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	Then I think you're missing one of the good things about this board; being able to bounce ideas off each other instead of flooding HQ with emails on a daily basis.
tnroadrunner		#20	[-]
Posts: 21 (05/31/09 08:59:43) More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	Rob, first off I would not be flooding HQ with emails on a daily basis. I would bring it up on this forum first. People sure take things the wrong way. Bob TFA, NRA, IDPA, 3 GUN It's always a great day. If you don't believe me try missing one.

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What do our yearly dues pay for?

What do our yearly dues pay for?