I believe that the IDPA rule book needs to be improved. I agree with Bob Hostetter that IDPA HQ needs to step up and formalize training for AC,MD postions and the process for running big events. I shot both the Nevada and the Arizona State IDPA matches. Anyone who shot both would have to agree that it was a night and day difference as to how the two were run. Maybe a better rule book and training would help. Just my thoughts. As to how the guns were given in AZ, the top 3 in each class i.e MA,EXP,SS,MM were put into the raffle for the division gun. Once again GREAT MATCH Mr.LEE and I will be back. It was the best run IDPA match I have shot to date. Why should'nt someone who practices more and trains and ends up doing better have an increased chance of getting a better prize?? Maybe if we all lost a couple of pounds we could move a little faster and better our scores, lord knows I need to lose a few pounds. Have a nice day and Happy Mothers day.
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IDPA Rules
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 xd4idpa |
IDPA Rules |
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Posts: 3 (05/10/09 11:18:06) |
Last Edited By: xd4idpa 05/10/09 11:22:45.
Edited 1 time.
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Jose Rossy |
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Posts: 93 (05/10/09 19:16:54) |
xd4idpa wrote:These days the retards who run most public school systems and the retards who claim to be experts in "education" would tell you that rewarding top performance at the expense of substandard performance would hurt the self-esteem of the sub standard performers. I say GOOD. That's how it works in the real world. I'd rather my daughter have a healthy amount of self respect, anyway. Jose Rossy
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Scuba Simpleton |
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Posts: 118 (05/11/09 07:40:29) |
Dear xd
I have never been accused of being a fan of portions of the current IDPA rules. The rules against prizes of value for performance are the clearest in the book and go to the heart of the sport. Buying guns with funds generated by the match to give away as raffle prizes is bad enough, to make those prizes performance dependent runs counter to the rules and forces the vast majority of the competitors to subsidize guns for the winners. That is wrong on every level. It seems the ACs from CA, NV and AZ don't have a problem with this. That will inform the decision making process of others in the future. Dear Jose What does that have to do with anything related to IDPA? But thank you for your "eloquence." Bob PS-I guess you didn't realize what closed thread meant. |
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Jose Rossy |
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Posts: 95 (05/11/09 18:20:10) |
Scuba Simpleton wrote: Jose Rossy
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Jose Rossy |
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Posts: 95 (05/11/09 18:20:10) |
Scuba Simpleton wrote: Jose Rossy
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drizzico |
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Posts: 160 (05/11/09 19:28:21) |
Jose,
Your argument "These days the r*****s who run most public school systems and the r*****s who claim to be experts in "education" would tell you that rewarding top performance at the expense of substandard performance would hurt the self-esteem of the sub standard performers"For a prize table would make sense if it was not for the fact that trophies are awarded to the winners (top performers to use your words.) To me the best prize I ever received was the little certificate I got when the first time I won a local match. It means more to me then any prize I have seen on a table at any sanctioned match. (Winning a gun would be nice, I will grant you that.) I even have a trophy from Frank and the Carolina Cup. Those two awards hang proudly in my reloading room. I would be hard pressed to be willing to hang a prize gun in the room in today's day and age you can't simply display a gun on your wall like you used to. You do that today and if you have kids the gun is either fake or locked six ways to Sunday anti gun nut will report you to Child Protective Services... 
In any case the intent of the rules is clearly to prevent sanctioned match organizers from having to beg, borrow or shell out club money to purchase prizes to draw individual shooters to there event or do you raise the entry fee to cover them. I remember a thread on the forum where people were willing to do without the t-shirt just to lower the cost of the match. Imagine what having to acquire several guns would do to the cost of the event if they had to be purchased. Would the companies that currently donate guns as prizes to the matches like S&W and SA continue to donate them if they new that a club putting on the match had the financial abilities to purchase three or four of them for the award ceremonies. What about the Safety Officers. Do you keep two sets of scores one for them so that they have a better chance of winning one to compensate them for all the hard work they did making sure we had a good time and that each stage was run as fairly as possible. It's kind of like allowing race guns. At what point do you say enough is enough...? Ok, let me get off my soap box now... Dave |
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Scuba Simpleton |
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Posts: 119 (05/11/09 20:06:21) |
Part of match sponsorship for any major sponsor, is the ability to receive X free slots for their sponsored shooters. That is part of the negotiation of all
major matches for sponsorship dollars and prizes.
Dave Sevigny, Bob Vogel, David Olhasso, Scott Warren, Gordon Carrell, Jerry Miculek, Curt Nichols, Randi Rogers, and Craig Buckland don't need another free gun. They have all they need. Major sponsors pay major dollars to support the average shooter, not to get more free guns for their sponsored shooters. Many require that their products are either randomly awarded, used to promote a charitable purpose or volunteer staff expenses/incentives. Without this distinction, there is very little to differentiate the USPSA market from the IDPA market. I have won three guns in the last year in random drawings. Before that, I had never won anything better than a coffee cup. I "won" a bore light in California. My son "won" a certificate in California for a good performance. That year California bought guns for the prize table with entry fees. I doubt I will ever win another gun since my luck is used up. That is fine with me, but if I am paying for another gun, I expect it will be either for me or my son. I have no problem with supporting matches, but Glock and I are even and I owe Springfield Armory. Bob |
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Scuba Simpleton |
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Posts: 120 (05/11/09 21:55:21) |
One more thought on rule revisions-
The last rule book revision was done with too little input from too few people. It happened by rumor, message board, phone call, email and brief chat. The first "draft" was flawed enough that a major flare up caused a revision to the revision. I hope that the next revision is shorter than the current version, clarifies confusion, and doesn't create new problems in an effort to "purify" the sport. IDPA is on the way to too much purity. By that, I mean that we should not take the fun out of the game or rule out tactics for competitive purity. The current process is no more open than the last. That is not a good indicator for a positive outcome. If IDPA is only going to revise rules every few years, they need to get it right each time. Bob |
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robertbank.czechpistols82792 |
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Posts: 221 (05/12/09 09:46:34) |
A couple of things I would like to see changed are:
1. Elimination of the weight restrictions. Any advantage of a heavier gun to reduce recoil has been shown to be offset by the driveability of lighter guns. As it stand s now the rules suggest you can carry a 50 oz revolver but you can't carry more than a 39 oz pistol? For jurisdictions the do not allow 4" or less bareled guns using the average weight of guns in adivision to come up with an upper limit reduces the options we have to shoot SSP. 2. Elimination of the dustcover rule. Just about every pistol maker now makes a gun with a dustcover and what advantage a model with a dustcover has over the same gun without one escapes me. 3. Decide what striker fired pistols are in practical terms. My M&P hs but one trigger pull that is discernable by any shooter I have ever met as do the Glocks and XD's so how they qualify for D/A status is beyond me. Either move them all to ESP/CDP or call SSP the striker fired Divsion. IDPA could do well to examin IPSC (Not USPSA) Production rules when it comes to modifications allowed in all divisions if we are serious about keeping the costs down. Take Care Bob
qui desiderat pacem, praeparat bellum
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Jose Rossy |
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Posts: 98 (05/12/09 16:23:20) |
robertbank wrote: Jose Rossy
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robertbank.czechpistols82792 |
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Posts: 222 (05/12/09 18:29:26) |
Which brings us to the whole question of what DA means. None of the striker fired pistols that I am aware of have that capability and really operate no
differently than a single action pistollike the 1911. The difference being the latter has an external hammer while the striker fireded pistols
"hammer" is internal. Perhaps the answer is to make SSP, striker fired pistols only and turn ESP into a place for everything else other than .45acp
and shoot it 125PF. Just reduce the number of modifications that are allowed. CDP would be for anything that shoots 165 PF.
Take Care Bob
qui desiderat pacem, praeparat bellum
Last Edited By: robertbank
05/12/09 18:41:22.
Edited 1 times.
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freeidaho |
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Posts: 3028 (05/12/09 18:54:43) |
Put all the striker fired handguns into ESP and CDP. The Glock, M&P, and XD have no problems holding their own in CDP against tuned and expensive 1911
designs.
Ken Reed |
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robertbank.czechpistols82792 |
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Posts: 223 (05/12/09 19:13:28) |
freeidaho wrote:I like that! Take Care Bob
qui desiderat pacem, praeparat bellum
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RobMoore |
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Posts: 322 (05/12/09 21:12:39) |
...and Berettas and SIGs have no problem holding their own against striker fired guns. Not a valid argument.
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Steve Koski |
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Posts: 756 (05/12/09 22:47:48) |
Scuba Simpleton wrote: Bob, I could not agree with you more. Thank you. Koski |
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robertbank.czechpistols82792 |
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Posts: 225 (05/13/09 09:02:50) |
RobMoore wrote:Given the three pistol divisions at the US Nationals were all won by striker fired pistols I would challenge that argument. You can't deny the fact the striker fired pistols for all the hype have but one trigger pull and are no more than single action guns with an enclosed hammer and no external safety. Unless we make some fundamental changes in our three pistol divisions I suggest to you our sport will evolve into a tupperware sport (It may evolve there anyway as the firearm industyr moves to tupperware to reduce costs). I would go one step further and suggest IPSC Production, not USPSA, rules regarding handguns allowed and allowed modifications is closer to where we should be if the intent of IDPA is to keep the sport as close to box stock firearms and inexpensive to shoot as possible. Just my opinion and I respect those who would challenge this premise. Take Care Bob
qui desiderat pacem, praeparat bellum
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RobMoore |
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Posts: 323 (05/13/09 09:46:06) |
...and the CZ SP01 wins a ton as well, particularly 1st and 2nd at the 08 World Shoot Production (beating out one of the Glock winners you just mentioned)
We've also recently seen a Beretta used to shoot a sub-60 classifier, right? Traditional DA guns are closer to single actions after the first shot than any Glock, M&P, or XD. Lets face it, they ARE single actions after the first shot. Any disadvantage you percieve by that first press can be more than made up on the next 5 to 17. As for our sport evolving into a Tupperware Party, why is that a bad thing? If people are choosing strikered guns for one or more of the many good reasons, why do we need to setup a sanctuary to protect the hammered guns from competition? |
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freeidaho |
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Posts: 3033 (05/13/09 10:42:46) |
Rob,
My suggestion to put them all into ESP was based on the thousands of threads of "Why is the XD in a different division than the other striker fired guns." To my mind, the XD is in the right division now. The M&P is not. And it is unclear where the Glock goes, since things like the Vaneck trigger are currently allowed. So I was just going to lump them all together in a division made for single actions. I'm shooting my G17 in ESP because of a personal modification. Seems okay there. But I have no real passion for one way or the other. It could stay the same and be fine by me. Ken Reed |
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RobMoore |
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Posts: 325 (05/13/09 13:25:36) |
I can't count how many times I write out a response, only to see that I'm not signed in after reply, and what I just wrote is now gone forever. Really
irritating.
Anyway, I would not be as displeased with a move of strikered guns into ESP so long as the rules for ESP mirrored SSP. I don't think factory glocks should be lumped in with those who have add-on magwells and lengthened aluminum basepads. Apart from the 1911 single stack variety that don't widen the gun at all, I don't think larger add-on magwells belong in the sport. However, if they are to be allowed, they definitely should play by themselves apart from those who chose to keep their gun in its more "carry friendly" configuration. The name of the current division "Enhanced" makes sense, and I'm fine with the way things are. On another note, I wouldn't shed any tears if 5.11 / Woolrich / similar vests were banned as competitive equipment. I will, however, continue to use one until they day comes. Frankly, I don't know how to phrase a rule that would ban such things without #1 being too specific as to affect unintended articles of clothing, or #2 be so ambiguous as to allow a substitute, yet equally ludicrous for daily use, product to popup in its place. |
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freeidaho |
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Posts: 3035 (05/13/09 13:42:22) |
RobMoore wrote: Rob, Agreed and agreed. I use my Concealed Carry Clothiers Vest, if I'm wearing it for the season. Mostly I shoot from a coat, CCV or untucked shirt, knowing full well the untucked shirt isn't as fast, but it is what I wear all summer. Ken Reed |
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Chuck |
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Posts: 86 (05/13/09 13:50:09) |
RobMoore wrote:Agreed. I don't own one and probably never will. As Ken stated, I wear an untucked shirt. When I see somebody wearing a vest and doesn't have a camera around his neck, I know he's either carrying or is a Mall Ninja. The vest should be as out of vogue as the fanny pack. Chuck
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- Announcements
- Site Suggestions and Comments, Technical Help
- New Member Introduction
- General Forum
- MAJOR IDPA Match Announcements and Results
- LOCAL IDPA Match Announcements and Results
- Non-IDPA Match Announcements
- Match Chat
- IDPA Tips N' Tricks
- IDPA Equipment Questions
- IDPA Rules Questions
- Course Of Fire (CoF) Library and Links
- Rule Clarifications
- COF Ideas
- Talkin' Tactical
- Gunsmithing Questions
- Training Events
- Stock & Enhanced Service Revolver
- Custom Defensive Pistol
- Stock Service Pistol
- Enhanced Service Pistol
- BUG
- Provisional 3 Gun Forum
- Gun Owner's Alerts
- 'Round the Stats Shack
- Other Shooting Sports Questions/Issues
- Reloading
- Knives
- Shotguns
- Rifles/Carbines
- Stuff For Sale
