Gracias Robert!
-Koski
-Koski
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Requirements for Law Enforcement
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 Steve Koski |
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Posts: 644 (03/30/09 17:15:22) |
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humphreys19 |
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Posts: 24 (03/30/09 20:22:43) |
Thank you for your clarification, Robert. All of the LEO's I have seen at my club have shot in duty gear, and I don't see any advantage over the stuff
us non LEO types use. Whether they have mace, etc. does not matter to me. If they shoot from their duty gear using all the security features, I have no problem
with it. I have not seen any race gear passed off as duty equipment. Yet.
... Tom
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Jim Watson |
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Posts: 527 (03/30/09 22:36:20) |
The main things I have learned from seeing cops shoot in their duty rig is that:
1. A good man can get a gun going out of a retention holster pretty darned fast. 2. Nobody can reload very fast out of those horizontal flapped magazine pouches. Especially if he gets the flap too close to his handcuffs or some such. |
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freeidaho |
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Posts: 2915 (03/31/09 10:19:15) |
Jim Watson wrote:
Last Edited By: freeidaho
03/31/09 11:00:06.
Edited 1 times.
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Bob Hostetter |
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Posts: 62 (03/31/09 17:06:10) |
Bubba,
Yes I am an AC, and yes I could call or email Robert Ray directly and I will at some point. But I like to get a lot of different peoples opinion on things that I am discussing. I don't believe that just because I am an AC and have an opinion, that no one elses has value. Tempest in a tea pot? No, just a desire to intelligently discuss an issue that has come up and effects several IDPA members in my area. In case you didn't notice, I haven't offered an opinion on this issue (other then I don't like mandating the radio's) but instead wanted to hear other peoples opinions and their justification for having them. I will also probably discuss it, in person, with other shooters and AC's over the next couple of months as I attend matches across the country. Then, I will call Robert and both ask the question and offer my opinion and make my recommendations.
Bob Hostetter
Calif IDPA Area Coordinator |
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buzzdraw |
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Posts: 140 (03/31/09 21:05:51) |
rledwards wrote:We have a number of officers who sometimes use their duty gear. For our matches, we allow the radio not to be present, but everything else (cuffs, collapsible baton, etc) is required to be there on the duty belt. All holster security devices must be in use for every gun presentation. I suppose we'd also exempt the requirement to tote a Tazer, but haven't had to cross that bridge. It doesn't make sense to risk damage to expensive gear, like radio & Tazer. Jack
Last Edited By: buzzdraw
03/31/09 21:09:56.
Edited 1 times.
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Howard B |
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Posts: 17 (04/01/09 08:03:15) |
As far as the radio goes, my guess is there are many departments that still use pool radios rather than an item of equipment that the officer takes home every day. Most of the other stuff, to include Tasers, tend to be issued to the individual. And as others have pointed out, radios are pricey, especially the new digital system ones. It would be hard to explain damaging one at a pistol match. Howard |
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gmancdp |
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Posts: 77 (04/02/09 09:34:57) |
we have a local Fed/Ranger[John Hearn] for the Natchez Trace that shoots in full gear/uniform and all ,and does a good job of whooopen up on most of us,every
month..Sometimes he will shoot the all steel match at another club in full gear with good results also..Some of the locals,small town/counties
police/sherriffs,the Md will let them shoot as they dress,which means usually jeans,a duty belt,holster,duty mag holders and just 1 cuff case..point taken is
that they want to get the LE's to just shoot..The local club is also starting a LE only match every month,using IDPA rules,to get "them"out and
shooting...
http://ridgecrossingshootingclub.com/calendar.html Gerg... |
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robertbank.czechpistols82792 |
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Posts: 192 (04/02/09 13:51:41) |
Personally I would have no objections if the officer came with his duty belt, duty mag holders and duty holster along with his duty gun. Most of the rigs I
hvae seen are not conducive to shooting IDPA at a very high level anyway. That said I agree with Jim Watson some are very good using their duty rigs but it
does take talent to go fast. I just like to see them out shooting and enjoying themselves. It breaks down barriers both ways. I am not sure, how insisting
an officer have cuff pouches attached to his belt effects how he shoots but for sanctioned matches I'll insist the rules are followed.
Take Care Bob
qui desiderat pacem, praeparat bellum
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CChristian |
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Posts: 164 (04/02/09 14:27:50) |
Just a thought... but the more LEOs shooting IDPA the better. In the event that a civilian IDPA member is ever involved in a self-defense shooting, a
politically motivated prosecuting attorney might attempt to make an "issue" of the fact that the IDPA member regularly "participated in combat
pistol games". ... the inference to the jury being that the IDPA member was some kind of militia wacko who was actively training to shoot someone.
If you can call a couple of local LEOs to the stand in your defense and have them testify to the benefits and skill building resulting from their IDPA participation, the jury may view that IDPA member in a different light. Politically motivated prosecuting attorneys are more common then not (remember Nifong and the Duke Five?). Anything that can be done to de-fang them is a plus. The more LEOs we have showing up and feeling wlecome, the better off we all are. At least, that's MHO. A self-defense shooting doesn't end when the attacker is neutralized. Any help you can get for the "aftermath" is an asset. I'd go out of my way to attract LEOs to my clubs... and to make them feel very welcome. Chris Christian |
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freeidaho |
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Posts: 2921 (04/02/09 14:28:41) |
robertbank wrote:The bold part of this bothers me, not so much because Robert Bank just typed it, but because it seems prevelent in this sport. We should be following the rules for all IDPA matches. Robert Ray has weighed in on what the rule means to HQ with respect to what has to be and what does not have to be included in the duty rig. Maybe I am a bit naive, but shouldn't that be the end of it. Our personal preference is not an issue. The rule is now clear. How about we just follow it..... you know..... like...... always? Ken Reed |
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CChristian |
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Posts: 165 (04/02/09 15:03:59) |
I don't think there is a MD or SO that hasn't overlooked an equipment rule for a new shooter, while educating them as to what they need next time. Very
often, at least in my CSO experience, that is what brings a shooter back instead of embarrassing them to the extent that they never come back... and bad mouth
IDPA to anyone who will lsten.
Given that this thread was about LEOs and duty gear, I don't think Robert Banks observations were out of line at all. LEOs have a certain mindset. It's necessary for them to do their job ( I know that 'cause I used to be one). I'm not saying that a LEO who consistently shows up with improper gear should be excused. But, I certainly would cut them some slack in their first visits to a club match, while educating them on what consititues proper gear. If they want to shoot a sanctioned match... as Robert Banks noted... then they will know the rules through their club match experience. Chris Christian |
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freeidaho |
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Posts: 2922 (04/02/09 15:14:26) |
Chris,
Excellent reply. But RobertB's reply didn't say anything about new shooters, nor did mine. But if they had, your reply would be right on! Maybe I should have said "like.... always.... (except new shooters). Ken Reed
Last Edited By: freeidaho
04/02/09 15:19:09.
Edited 1 times.
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CChristian |
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Posts: 166 (04/02/09 15:43:09) |
Ken,
I think, sometimes, when strict adherence to the rules is being discussed, that we often forget that the shooter at their first match (they're not required to be IDPA members at that one and couldn't be expected to understand the Rule Book, let alone actually have one) is just there to learn. I see the thought " rules are rules", and can agree with it to a point. What I feel has to be included in that is that new shooters aren't quite included (except... obviously... for safety rules) in that strict adherence. I think SOs should always be able to differentiate between an experienced competitor who is stretching the Rule Book to obtain a competitve advantage, and the new shooter who has that "deer in the headlights" look and is learning the Rule Book 3 seconds at a time. The two cases are quite different, and need to be handled differently. Chris Christian |
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Bob Hostetter |
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Posts: 63 (04/02/09 21:33:05) |
Ken,
Keep in mind what Robert said in his post.... "should be based on power to arrest, either federal or state". You realize that this excludes Military Police because they have no power of arrest beyond the perimeter of their military base. They have almost exactly the same powers that tribal 'depts of public safety' have and it is given to both of them by federal stature. Also this would exclude any foreign police officers as well. What about a California police officer competing in Arizona? The California officer has no powers to arrest in Arizona....... Even with Robert's clarification there are a lot of unanswered questions.
Bob Hostetter
Calif IDPA Area Coordinator |
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freeidaho |
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Posts: 2923 (04/02/09 22:34:27) |
Bob Hostetter wrote: Bob, With due respect, it seems pretty clear that if a person has arrest powers where they work, it doesn't matter where the match is. Or maybe an AC with doubts could contact HQ and get more clarification..... 
Ken Reed |
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Jose Rossy |
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Posts: 80 (04/06/09 21:31:04) |
If a guys shows me an ID that proves he is a sworn member of any city, county, state, tribal, military, or federal law enforcement agency, or an equivalent
from any nation friendly to the United States; he is a cop, gets to shoot as a cop, and can shoot using as much of his duty gear as he likes or can shoot from
concealment, his or her choice.
It really should not be more difficult than that. Jose Rossy
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Steve Koski |
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Posts: 664 (04/06/09 22:57:49) |
Sounds pretty easy to me.
Koski |
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freeidaho |
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Posts: 2937 (04/06/09 23:11:50) |
Jose Rossy wrote: Jose, I really like the way you worded this post. Very well done. And I was completely with you up until the part about "using as much of his duty gear as he likes." Given Robert Ray's recent clarification above, it seems the amount of duty gear is not optional. With due respect, to do differently now that a clarification has been issued, is to discard IDPA and make up your own rules. Ken Reed |
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Jose Rossy |
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Posts: 84 (04/07/09 19:14:48) |
Ken, I will defer to peace officers on this. Whatever they feel comfortable with goes.
Jose Rossy
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- Announcements
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- IDPA Equipment Questions
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- Course Of Fire (CoF) Library and Links
- Rule Clarifications
- COF Ideas
- Talkin' Tactical
- Gunsmithing Questions
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- Stock & Enhanced Service Revolver
- Custom Defensive Pistol
- Stock Service Pistol
- Enhanced Service Pistol
- BUG
- Provisional 3 Gun Forum
- Gun Owner's Alerts
- 'Round the Stats Shack
- Other Shooting Sports Questions/Issues
- Reloading
- Knives
- Shotguns
- Rifles/Carbines
- Stuff For Sale
