Why don't I see certain guns at matches

RSS
Email

0 Kudo

Author	Comment
RobMoore		#41	[-]
Posts: 259 (03/14/09 13:26:10) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	If no responsibility is to be placed on the SO, why am I showing him the gun at all? They should hold some of it if they are going to be the ones checking my gun. For the record, I agree with DQing the shooter, but there is some inconsistencies here in the commands. Perhaps the commands should force more of responsibility back on the shooter, and make it clear the process rides on his shoulders. Something like: "Shooter, remove the magazine and open the gun. Check the chamber and magazine well. If empty, slide forward, pull the trigger, holster.
Steve Koski		#42	[-]
Posts: 605 (03/14/09 18:47:21) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	How about this. If you are legally, mentally, and morally capable of inspecting your own firearm, please do so. After said check please report the condition of your weapon to me and to no one else. If said weapon has been legally and audibly declared by yourself to be ammunition free, then dry fire said weapon into the berm via retracting the trigger in a rearward direction (all safeties disengaged) until the primer is struck with a firing pin or striker or similar instrument. If at that time, the gun makes a noise louder than 68 db, you will be disqualified. Do you understand this? If so, make your mark here in this box. Thank you. Now that you have made your mark and it has been duly witnessed by myself and two other adults in good moral standing, please proceed with the aforementioned unloading and showing clear process. Koski
RobMoore		#43	[-]
Posts: 260 (03/14/09 19:30:29) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	^ why? Do you not agree that if the SO is to be placed in charge of assuring the shooter's gun is empty that he/she should be responsible for the act? "Delegation" is a word that comes to mind as well. If the responsibility is to be placed on the shooter, than the actual act should be placed in his/her control. Its seems only logical to me that if you are supervising someone, and you put them in charge of doing something, if it is done poorly, they should take the blame. However, if you are directly supervising the act to the point of micromanaging, and it is done poorly, you are to blame. It was your job to inspect the gun to ensure it is empty, and you failed. If you want to blame me, as the shooter, make it my job to inspect the gun, and change the commands accordingly.
Steve Koski		#44	[-]
Posts: 606 (03/14/09 20:08:37) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	It is the shooter's job to unload. The command is "UNLOAD and show clear." If you fail to unload and AD into the berm, you get DQ'd, regardless of what the SO sees or doesn't see. If adding some words makes it more legally correct/clearer for you, then ad some words. Koski
Ontrack		#45	[-]
Posts: 65 (03/14/09 20:46:53) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	Unless you're a first-time IDPA shooter, you know what has to be done, no matter if you are told or not. If you shoot the berm, be a man, (no offense, ladies) take your DQ, and walk away. Suck it up, learn from your mistake, thank God it wasn't an innocent bystander that you just shot, and come back to shoot another day. Steve
RobMoore		#46	[-]
Posts: 261 (03/14/09 20:56:38) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	I get "unload". Its "show clear" I'm taking issue with. I'm just trying to make sense of the point of showing the SO the gun if he has no responsibility to do anything with it. Why is he looking at it? He can fail at his task of inspecting the gun completely, and there is no repercussion....apart from maybe a little self-induced embarrassment. All the real consequence falls on the shooter. I don't claim to have a solution beyond transferring the task more towards the shooter. Matches depends on SOs. Shooters, for the most part, will show up. SOs are harder to obtain. I get that yanking the SO off the stage isn't normally a viable option. If the word count is what you are trying to keep the same, then "Unload and verify empty". I know, I'm swimming upstream again. Last Edited By: RobMoore 03/14/09 21:02:34. Edited 1 times.
Steve Koski		#47	[-]
Posts: 607 (03/14/09 22:32:01) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	Because there are checks and double checks and training and reminders, but ultimately safety is the shooter's responsibility, nobody else's. Koski
Boats		#48	[-]
Posts: 18 (03/15/09 08:22:24) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	Don't like pile on the same message but. I am responsible for safe handling of my firearm, nobody else, In any critical system there are checks and double checks. but the basic responsibility is still the shooters Boats
SL1		#49	[-]
Posts: 63 (03/16/09 08:31:36) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	I have had some exeprience with "double check" procedures in industry, and believe the same thinking should apply here in IDPA. The underlying problem is that allowing one party to assume the other party will catch any errors means there is really NO check! That is what all my investigations of industrial "mishaps" have demonstrated was at the root of failures with double-check procedures. So, I fully support DQing the shooter who NDs on the USC - HD commands. The shooter must NEVER be allowed to blame the SO. In addition, I think the MD should at least review the incident with the SO and STRONGLY let him know that he failed to do his responsibity, ALSO. If an SO lets shooters ND on the USC - HD commands more than once in a really long while, I think the SO's credentials should be revoked for at least some specified period of time and recertification with retraining should be required (not just a suspension for a specific period of time.) The SO's need to be held accountable in some way so that they will ALL take this responsibility seriously, too. Steve L.
Jim Watson		#50	[-]
Posts: 512 (03/16/09 09:00:04) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	Good approach, Steve. Actually, I don't SO except for home club and a little relief work at ranges familiar to me. I got burnt out some time ago, having been cheated, cursed, and lied to and about.
Dragoon		#51	[-]
Posts: 122 (03/16/09 15:28:53) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	Steve Koski wrote: If adding some words makes it more legally correct/clearer for you, then ad some words. Koski How 'bout "if clear, slide down, hammer down, holster"? The onus is then back with the shooter. Massimo
freeidaho		#52	[-]
Posts: 2864 (03/16/09 19:09:53) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	We have a winner ! ! ! Ken Reed
Steve Koski		#53	[-]
Posts: 613 (03/16/09 21:05:28) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	Or how about this, just have them hammer down. Don't worry about mags, empty chambers, nothing. If the gun doesn't go bang on HD, holster it. Koski
SL1		#54	[-]
Posts: 65 (03/16/09 22:14:03) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	Koski, Well, that would be a problem if the gun went "click" instead of "bang" on a live round in the chamber (as sometimes happens). Then, you would have a really bad situation: a CARELESS shooter walking around with a loaded gun that HE THINKS IS UNLOADED. If everybody just pointed at the berm and pulled the trigger without checking clear with eyeballs, I think this would happen, and more often than we think. Or, were you just teasing us? Steve L.
Steve Koski		#55	[-]
Posts: 615 (03/16/09 23:18:51) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	Steve L. What I don't want is more words to say, just so that a small handfull of people can feel that everything is legally proper. We are not lawyers. Shooters are not legal clients or suspects. Legalese is not necessary. The rules are sufficient to allow for simplified range commands that aren't full of qualifiers. Koski
SL1		#56	[-]
Posts: 66 (03/17/09 07:39:14) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	Koski, I fully agree. IF any more words are needed, then they should be put in the Rules to more precisely define the meaning of the simple range commands. SOs have enough on their minds - - they shouldn't need to memorize speeches. Steve L.
RobMoore		#57	[-]
Posts: 267 (03/17/09 20:49:32) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	I'm able to wrap my head around the fact that it is up to me to ensure the gun is empty, and the SO is just there as a backup, and I agree that is how it should be. I'll ignore my own perceived inconsistencies in the process in the future and simply check the gun, and let the man to my right check the work for mistakes. Thanks for leading me to water.
jamie blow		#58	[-]
Posts: 12 (03/20/09 11:32:16) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	At the S&W Indoor Nationals, I shot my Taurus 1911 Stainless. Great Pistol, Had some ammo problems, (I bought Magtech 230 ball ammo for the match to make sure and meet the PF for CDP) I never thought to try running some of this brand through the gun before the match and ended up jamming a few times, my thoughts and those of my squad mates was that I had been shooting 200 gr SWC's all along and had a worn 16 pound spring in the gun (factory spring), which was allowing the slide to bounce a little at the rear of it's travel, popping the round up slightly and hitting the hood. Stupid thing was I had brand new Wolff recoil springs in my hotel room. I have since replaced the spring with a fresh wolf spring and had nary a problem. Jamie
CChristian		#59	[-]
Posts: 155 (03/27/09 16:59:55) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	Quick question based on Koski's post, RE: SO commands on the "unload & show clear". SHOW ME A CLEAR GUN: unload & show clear. I SEE IT: Slide down, hammer down, holster If the gun goes BANG on the hammer down, is it the fault of the shooter, or the SO who told the shooter that he saw a clear chamber, and then told him to drop the hammer. Just a question. Chris Christian
Steve Koski		#60	[-]
Posts: 639 (03/27/09 19:05:43) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	What do you think? Should the SO be DQ'd and the shooter be given a $20 bonus? Koski

<< Previous Topic Next Topic >>

Yuku free message boards

Why don't I see certain guns at matches

Quick Reply