Why don't I see certain guns at matches

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Steve Koski		#21	[-]
Posts: 585 (03/10/09 23:39:27) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	Jim Watson wrote: I have seen people put a loaded magazine back in a Browning or S&W to drop the hammer. I consider this grossly unsafe and would not allow it on my range. Have a spare empty to show clear with or shoot something else. I guess a stick or a long finger would be ok, but really, now, why don't you come prepared? One of those blue solid practice magazines would be ideal. I know a guy who campaigns a 5906 and keeps one handy. If, as SO, I fail to see that you did not clear the chamber and dump a round on the "hammer down", I will feel bad... but you will be through for the day. My thoughts exactly Jim!!! Koski
tohlmann		#22	[-]
Posts: 21 (03/11/09 09:57:28) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	Bringing this thread back from thread drift, I think the whole DA/SA, every trigger pull the same thing is way over done. Why do more people shoot safe action, double action only, etc? Because there's more of them out there now and more attention paid to them. I have no problems with my CZ SP-01 Custom DA/SA. My first shot trigger pull is equal to a safe action pull and then every shot there after is like a finely tuned 1911 (Angus does fantastic triggers). Terry
CChristian		#23	[-]
Posts: 149 (03/11/09 16:20:46) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	Just a thought... and I hate to be a "thread drifter" but there is a statement in the above posts that, as an SO, bothers me. " If I, as SO, fail to see that you did not clear the chamber and dump the round on the "hammer down", I will feel bad... but you will be through for the day." An SO has defined, and implied duties. With that comes authority, and with that should come some degree of acountability. You can argue one way or the other whether the SO has the responsibility to assure an empty gun on the Unload/Show Clear command at the end of the COF. But, regardless of the opinion held on that matter... when the SO tells the shooter to bring the slide forward and dry fire into the berm... the shooter is following the commands of the SO. If the gun goes "boom", is the shooter at fault for following the SO commands? Or, is the SO partially to blame for simply not doing the safety checks that are a part of his/her job description. Seems to be a bit unfair to automatically DQ the shooter for following the SO commands, when the SO failed to properly execute his/her duties. As SOs, we cannot attest to the skill and experience of every shooter who comes to the line with a score sheet. What we can do, is make certain... to the best of our a bility... that the stage runs safely. That includes clearing the shooter at the end of the stage. If the SO is not capable of looking into a pistol chamber, or revolver cylinder, and determining that it is indeed empty... before he gives the shooter the command to fire into the berm, then why is that person still an SO? And, why is the shooter being DQed for following that SOs orders. Chris Christian
RobMoore		#24	[-]
Posts: 257 (03/11/09 16:21:04) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	The DA/SA vs Striker fired action was way down on the list of reasons why I switched from a SIG 226 to an M&P. Much higher on the list was the fact that I could grip higher on the gun with the M&P. The SIG leaves a 3/4" gap from the top of your hand to the bottom of the slide. The M&P has about 1/4" of gap.
Glshooter		#25	[-]
Posts: 95 (03/11/09 16:42:26) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	CChristian wrote: If the SO is not capable of looking into a pistol chamber, or revolver cylinder, and determining that it is indeed empty... before he gives the shooter the command to fire into the berm, then why is that person still an SO? I have seen this happen. I brought a friend to his very first IDPA match and for some reason when he racked the slide to clear the gun, the round did not eject. The SO gave him the "slide down, hammer down" command and luckily my friend had the sense to notice the round still in the chamber. He had to inform the SO of the situation. My friend was not the most experienced shooter so luckily nothing bad happened. Dave
sraiford		#26	[-]
Posts: 100 (03/11/09 17:59:08) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	Well I'm glad to see the conversation tear off. I was wondering because I will be kinda shifting gears from a G34/G35 to a GP100. WOW, what a change in trigger!!! But I don't see anything at my local clubs but S&W revolvers, thats why I asked the question. I will say the action is hard and I don't like the fact that There is no "drop in" parts for the thing vs the Glock. Shane Raiford A27104
CChristian		#27	[-]
Posts: 150 (03/11/09 18:22:30) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	Shane, Bill Wilson spring kit for GP-100. Nice. I use it in mine. Cheap. Brownells's carries it. Nice 8 pound trigger pull that lights off any primer you shove into the gun. Also, Safariliand speedloaders for the L-frame fit the GP-100 perfectly. Have fun with the revolver. Chris Christian
19852.czechpistols82792		#28	[-]
Posts: 20 (03/12/09 09:41:45) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	I, for one, shoot a DA/SA gun better than a Glock, never tried a M&P. I have seen such unusual guns as the Luger. As for the BHP, I used use a cheap after-market mag that never worked anyway, removed the follower and spring for a hammer drop mag. Ted
Jim Watson		#29	[-]
Posts: 506 (03/12/09 09:56:40) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	Let me first assure Mr Christian that I make every effort to confirm an empty gun before I allow the shooter to dryfire and holster it. Usually the guns work properly and if not, I figure I am liklier to catch a residual round than to let it be shot. So far, so good, I have managed to do so for about 20 years, IPSC and IDPA combined. I worry less about my own attentiveness than getting caught by the hotdog who treats "unload and show clear" as a timed event, racking the slide, snatching the ejected cartridge out of the air, and clicking the trigger in one fast maneuver. As I said, so far, so good, I have not run into a speed unload and a reverse clearing at the same time. As to the OP, I have not been able to master the Glock tricky trigger to where its consistent pull is an advantage to me. I have shot SSP with a CZ75 or P226. I now have a Plastic M&P that seems promising. But then I am not a top shooter.
CChristian		#30	[-]
Posts: 151 (03/12/09 15:00:10) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	I want to assure Jim Watson that I was not in any way questioning his abilities as an SO. Having shot the FL State match, I know he is a good SO. My question, however, was -- If a SO makes a mistake (and I doubt if there is an SO out there that hasn't made one at some point in time... I know I have) and the shooter then follows the SOs commands that result in something happening regarding that mistake, should the shooter be penalized for the SO's error? That was the question, and my position is that the shooter should not be. Jim... as for the "hotdogs" on Unload/Show Clear..you and I are on the same page. My procedure is to wait until he just turns to walk away... and then in my loud, former Navy Petty Officer voice.. call him back. Then I make him draw the pistol and slowly do the unload and show clear.. right in front of everybody. On the one occasion when a shooter gave me "lip" over that I DQed him for unsportsman like conduct. He did return to subsequent matches, and was then a remarkably cooperative fellow, who was now "thoroughly with the program." As to the OP... I started with a CZ 75B in SSP, moved to a CZ 85 Combat, and when I discovered the M&P I made the shift and haven't looked back. Nothing wrong with the CZs. It's just that the consistent trigger pull on the M&P lets me shoot at a better rhythm. I even shoot a M&P in CDP. Chris Christian
Steve Koski		#31	[-]
Posts: 598 (03/12/09 15:11:48) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	CC - I haven't been present for a "hammer down" that went bang, but have heard of it happening a couple times. That's why it's there, to make sure that chamber is empty, even if the SO missed it. Yes, the SO missed it, but the shooter also missed the "unload and show clear" and earns a DQ. Getting DQ'd sucks. I've been there. Tried to learn from it after I stopped being pissed at myself. Koski
CChristian		#32	[-]
Posts: 153 (03/12/09 15:21:31) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	Koski, I guess we'll have to agree to respectfully disagree on that point. I just don't see how a shooter, following the commands of a SO, should be DQed for a mistake made by the SO. Chris Christian
Jim Watson		#33	[-]
Posts: 508 (03/12/09 16:52:55) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	Like I said, I would feel bad, but it won't have been me pulling the trigger. When done shooting I look at my own chamber and do not depend on the SO's sayso. That is MY duty to safety. I am of the general opinion that there are too few disqualifications; people are being allowed to get away with unsafe acts. Anecdotes: I told one MD that if the guy waving the gun around were not disqualified, then I was leaving to protect myself. He said "I was going to give him a good talking to." I said that was not enough, one of us is through for the day. I once watched another shooter execute a 270 degree turn and be DQed. Sort of. I saw him shooting later and inquired. "Well, it's not for score. He is a Master shooter and really knows better; and he came a long way to this match, it seems a shame to send him home without shooting."
CChristian		#34	[-]
Posts: 154 (03/12/09 17:15:35) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	Unsafe acts should be DQed. But, I guess some respectful level of disagreement can be had as to whether a shooter following the commands of a SO who screwed up should be DQed for following those commands. Like I said earlier, with responsibility comes authority, which should have some measure of accountability. If the SO isn't capable of performing a simple task/act like assuring that a firearm is, indeed, unloaded before he tells the shooter to dry fire it into the berm, then why is he still a SO? And, if he can't handle that task, why should he do a "CYA" on the shooter to cover his mistake? I realize that SOs are volunteers. I am a SO. But, some SO responsibilities are so basic as to require no real explanation. There are plenty of new shooters who have minimal skills who can get a bit overwhelmed by the experience of being on a firing line... in front of everybody... with the buzzer going "beep". It's up to the SO to make certain that their inexperience doesn't cause an accident. The SO's skill and experience is what is intended to keep the line safe. For an SO to say it's not his job to make certain a gun is clear on the Unload/Show Clear is... INMO... inexcusable! It would be nice if every shooter to the line was a MA or EX. But, that doesn't happen. That's why we have SOs paying attention to what's going on. Chris Christian
Ontrack		#35	[-]
Posts: 62 (03/12/09 18:54:26) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	Being one of the somewhat inexperienced IDPA shooters (6 or 7 matches) an SO wouldn't have to say a word to me if I "banged the berm". It would be my fault, and nobody else's because I am responsible for my firearm at all times. I would gather up my gear, hang my head, and walk away. Steve
humphreys19		#36	[-]
Posts: 19 (03/12/09 20:08:39) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	Good for you, Steve. The shooter is always responsible for what his weapon does. The fact that an SO says "hammer down" does not remove this responsibilty. I hope that this never happens to me, but if it does, I will accept my DQ and help paste and score for the rest of the match. ... Tom
Ontrack		#37	[-]
Posts: 64 (03/13/09 13:51:42) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	That would show great sportsmanship, Tom, and it would be a great thing to do (staying to score and paste). I think I'd be too embarrassed to face my squad for the rest of the match. Plus, I'd probably be better off gettting away and clearing my head. I couldn't have had a real clear head if I "banged", so I think I'll stay out of everbody's way and silently slither away...Like you, I hope it never happens to me, you, or anyone else! Steve
blsextonjr		#38	[-]
Posts: 15 (03/13/09 20:55:58) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	I guess we'll have to agree to respectfully disagree on that point. I just don't see how a shooter, following the commands of a SO, should be DQed for a mistake made by the SO. ...... That is why the correct verbiage from the SO/RO should be: IF clear, slide forward, hammer down and holster. The word "IF" clear makes it certain that the SHOOTER is responsible for the final check of the chamber. IF clear.... People need to take responsibility for their own actions. That is changing in the US these days... people want to blame others and litigate everything. If you did it, it is your fault. Barrett Last Edited By: blsextonjr 03/13/09 20:58:00. Edited 1 times.
Steve Koski		#39	[-]
Posts: 604 (03/13/09 22:15:28) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	Yeah, we need the SO's to speak in iron-clad legalese with all sorts of disclaimers and qualifiers, or else someone could claim that they weren't properly instructed. Give me a break. I think the best finishing range commands I've ever heard were at a single stack match I shot near Tampa FL a few years ago. Show me a clear gun. (Unload and show clear) I see it. (slide down, hammer down, holster) Koski Last Edited By: Steve Koski 03/13/09 22:17:47. Edited 1 times.
Boats		#40	[-]
Posts: 17 (03/14/09 07:01:11) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	Don't see any reason Rugers won't shoot fine but you never see them. We see some of the new Taurus 1911's at our club, work fine too. Have a BHP. I like the pistol a lot, use it for carry, However for IDPA it has limitations. Trigger pull is poor, but probably not worse than a Glock. Mag disconnect is awkward and if removed disqualifies the pistol for IDPA. Plus they are expensive. I think the big reason you don't see them they are grouped with some pretty good pistols class wise and suffer by comparison. The HP is in ESP which is a bit faster classification wise. Will shoot our clubs classifier with it soon just for grins but it's not the pistol I shoot in regular matches. I take a spare mag put some orange tape on the follower and stow in my back pocket for the SO's clearing command. Makes it real obvious it's empty. Bill Last Edited By: Boats 03/14/09 07:30:11. Edited 2 times.

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