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My Recent Posts · (06/09/09

Where I shoot there is 1 ESR and 1 SSR shooters. Except when Maine State match happens thens it goes to 15 or so.

Ken

My Recent Posts · (06/25/09

This is just my 2 cents, 1st point- ESR should be 125PF as SSR, they do not compete against each other, after all you can shoot .45acp in ESP and SSP down loaded to 125PF.
2nd point- I think the 627Pro should (I know you can shoot it in IDPA with only 6 rds loaded) be good to go loaded with 8rds as long as the shooter is willing to tack load at six rounds, this should void the reason for the "may only load six rounds" because you would not leave live rounds on the ground, shooter would get a 3 sec gig for shooting more than 6rds without a reload, just as you would with 10rds in an auto on a 6rd limited vic stage.
E.G. I would load six to start, reload with 8, if stage was 12rds no problem, if it was more than 12, tack load at the 12th round and go on.
3rd point- I asked some time ago about 8 shot revolvers is ESP, I was told in order to shoot in ESP gun has to fit in the box, revolvers don't have to fit in the box but if you want to run in ESP, box rule.
I have won HOA at a match with revolver (ESR) against master auto shooters, if I can do it, anyone can do it, the bottom feeders do get a bit upset though.
4th point- I don't think we need another division (split).

Dean

My Recent Posts · (06/25/09

Caswell Ranch wrote:
2nd point- I think the 627Pro should (I know you can shoot it in IDPA with only 6 rds loaded) be good to go loaded with 8rds as long as the shooter is willing to tack load at six rounds, this should void the reason for the "may only load six rounds" because you would not leave live rounds on the ground, shooter would get a 3 sec gig for shooting more than 6rds without a reload, just as you would with 10rds in an auto on a 6rd limited vic stage.
E.G. I would load six to start, reload with 8, if stage was 12rds no problem, if it was more than 12, tack load at the 12th round and go on.
Dean

Dean,
This is a pretty good idea. I can see someone making the point that the 627 shooter should get an FTDR instead of a PE for shooting more than 6 rounds if they use it to avoid a reload. Now if you gave the 627 shooter 1 PE for every round over 6 it might come a little closer, but that would run afoul of other rules, so it gets a little sticky.

My Recent Posts · (06/25/09

Capel,
I think you're on the money with an FTDR if they shoot 8 to avoid a reload, say on a 14rd stage, but any round count above that they would have to load anyway so I would go for PE on stage with 15-18rds. I just got another 627Pro for shooting ICORE and would like to shoot it in IDPA but it would be stupid to do loading 6rds only, I even have my 200gr .38spl loads ready running major PF and still in 38spl pressure.

Regards,
Dean

My Recent Posts · (06/25/09

Now I would love to run the 627Pro in ESP if the powers that be would O.K. it, I've had people say "you revolver shooters have it easy in the back half of the classifier, you can speed load from one side of the baracade to the other we have to tack load" etc. If we can shoot the 8 shot guns we will tack load like the auto's, no problem.

Dean

My Recent Posts · (06/25/09

Dean, the problem is giving a different penalty based on the number of required rounds for the stage. That would be a can of worms...

My Recent Posts · (06/26/09

Dean, Capel,

What PF do you get with 230 gr ball 45 ACP (full charge service ammunition - not light target ammunition - those words were lifted from the rulebook) from a 4" 625? I get 170000 PF from both of mine.

How about this:

1) Let the 7 and 8 rd revolvers in ESR as it stands at 165000 PF (easily done with 45 ACP 230 gr ball or 357 Magnum 158 gr ammunition). Frankly, an 8 shot 357 Magnum is no more or less viable/ridiculous for concealed carry than a 6 shot 45 ACP. Making those guns load 6 rd is excluding them.

2) Let all revolvers in ESP at 125000 PF.

That gives everyone a place to play at both power levels and with both loading systems - and you get to spank the semi-autos in thier own house.

Good?

Consider the nightmare that messing with PF or loading technique in an existing Division creates relative to Classification times, etc. (recall the great gnashing of teeth/bloodletting that ensued when ESR was created). And do you really want to compete and win in a "Special Needs" Division? That is exactly how a lower PF or lower match bump requirement change would be viewed. I would guess Dean does not. I don't.

We have done a great job of growing the revolver Divisions - we easily exceed USPSA participation levels at Regional and National level competitions. This is simply Phase 3 in our clever plan to achieve total World Domination.

Craig

PS - I like my 627 Pro too.

My Recent Posts · (06/26/09

Hi Graig,

My loads in .45acp run 168-170PF but it is hard on you after some time, I have a Mod-10, Mod-67, 686, M-36, 625, 627Pro and 657 all moon clip guns would be nice to run the 38's, when the split came down it should have been just that, a split, PF should have been the same as in ESP-SSP, the focus should not have gone to just .45acp. (full charge service ammunition-not light target) yep seen that, people run .45acp,40S&W etc in auto's all the time down loaded to just over 125PF, hell I've done it many times (it's a game). I know that you know how it is to shoot .357 in a match (nationals the other year when you had some bad ammo and had to shoot mag) I also remember your comments after the match, along with a chat we had about stress fractures in hands and arms because of stepping up practice for a major match last year at the Cup.
ANYWAY , I would shoot a revolver in ESP in a heart beat if they would O.K. it

My Recent Posts · (06/26/09

"We have done a great job of growing the revolver Divisions - we easily exceed USPSA participation levels at Regional and National level competitions."

Someone is making up facts!

USPSA 2008 Revolver Nationals = 29 shooters
IDPA 2008 Nationals = 27 shooters in 2 revolver divisions

These are the results from just 5 of the matches I have shot this year

IDPA
2009 Frozen Penguin = 19 revolver shooters in 2 divisions
2009 MD State Championship = 10 in 2
2009 PA State Championship = 10 in 2

USPSA
2009 VA/MD Sectional = 12
2009 South Carolina Sectional = 12

Looks like a draw to me with both having about the same amount, at least from the matches I have shot.

Of course the big winner is the IRC with 209!!!!!!!!!

My Recent Posts · (06/27/09

Dean

357 Mag is pretty good for about 20 rd. Agreed, it is no fun in a 200 rd match. In fact - it hurts.

Let's see what we can do about the 627 in ESP at 125000 PF.

It will be hard to win the 125000 PF 45 ACP argument - especially when so many are clamoring for "off the shelf" availability.

I know you can win in any Division with a 627 - the 125000 PF will just make it hurt less.

Perry,

More likely, someone has been selecting facts to suit their needs.

I did not reference State matches. The 3 largest matches in the country are the Outdoor Nationals, the (S&W WinterChampionships) Indoor Nationals and the Carolina Cup. As much as I like Kevin, I wouldn't use the Frozen Penguin as a bellweather (pun intended).

Would you care to add the 06-09 data for those matches to your data set? Recall the Division split happened in 2005, so that set is relevant. While your at it, go back 3 years before the split and and let us know what you find for those matches.

Craig

My Recent Posts · (06/27/09

Craig,

You are right, as I mentioned in the previous post these are matches that I have shot at in 2009. I didn't just select matches at random. I don't see a bigger number of revolver shooters at IDPA matches when compared to USPSA.

When you look at the Nationals, USPSA had 2 more revolver shooters. The Indoor Winternationals is a stand alone event and USPSA doesn't have a like match to compare it against. I have never shot the Carolina Cup and so I can't compare it to anything. What would you compare both of those matches to in USPSA? I think the MD and PA State Matches are comparible to the SC Sectional and The VA/MD Sectional. They both have around the same amount of shooter attending. I didn't go back to past years other than the nationals because they have not happened for 2009. If you want to compare the PA State to other matches held in PA the Summer Blast had 20 revolver shooters and the Area 8 had 13 (yes, I had to go back to 2008 to find those numbers).

I till say the numbers are about even! What happened in 2005 is in the past, I'm looking at 2009.

My Recent Posts · (06/30/09

Craig,
I,m up for it, so how do we get the 627Pro and other revolvers into ESP. You know the ESP shooters would have a cow if this was O.K.'d.

Dean

My Recent Posts · (06/30/09

In a previous thread on this board, Revolvers on the Rise: http://idpaforum.yuku.com/topic/4041
the data collected from published match results seemed to indicate an increase in the participation by revolver shooters after the split, particularly in SSR. While the data could certainly be updated and expanded, I do not know if current trends would as accurately demonstrate the effects of the division split as they would those of other factors such as the cost and supply of ammunition and reloading components and the economy in general.

My Recent Posts · (06/30/09

Dean,

Make your thoughts known here and on the IDPA rules chat forum (http://beachbunnysoftware.com/rulechat/)- a letter to Robert at HQ wouldn't hurt either.

Next, get your milking stool shined up....

Craig

My Recent Posts · (06/30/09

Craig,
The link is not working, any ideas?
Dean

PS It would be a sorry person (shooter) that would protest a revolver shooting against a 9mm--1911 or Glock etc.

My Recent Posts · (06/30/09

Try
http://beachbunnysoftware.com/rulechat/phpBB/

My Recent Posts · (06/30/09

Gregg,
Thanks, that works.
Dean

My Recent Posts · (06/30/09

O.K. I posted stuff on that site, nobody is over there bub.

Dean

My Recent Posts · (07/01/09

Dean,

The all-seeing eye is there... Not everyone who visits that site posts.

"PS It would be a sorry person (shooter) that would protest a revolver shooting against a 9mm--1911 or Glock etc. "

Indeed, it will. I already met some at an "outlaw" local match.

Craig

My Recent Posts · (07/01/09

I'll be ready if they decide to make any changes. I just bought an 8 shot 627. It's taken be this long to learn how to count to six, I'll have to start all over now.

Author	Comment
Bodger.eqdruids24038		#21	[-]
Posts: 32 (06/09/09 19:10:53) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	Where I shoot there is 1 ESR and 1 SSR shooters. Except when Maine State match happens thens it goes to 15 or so. Ken
Caswell Ranch		#22	[-]
Posts: 10 (06/25/09 00:51:14) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	This is just my 2 cents, 1st point- ESR should be 125PF as SSR, they do not compete against each other, after all you can shoot .45acp in ESP and SSP down loaded to 125PF. 2nd point- I think the 627Pro should (I know you can shoot it in IDPA with only 6 rds loaded) be good to go loaded with 8rds as long as the shooter is willing to tack load at six rounds, this should void the reason for the "may only load six rounds" because you would not leave live rounds on the ground, shooter would get a 3 sec gig for shooting more than 6rds without a reload, just as you would with 10rds in an auto on a 6rd limited vic stage. E.G. I would load six to start, reload with 8, if stage was 12rds no problem, if it was more than 12, tack load at the 12th round and go on. 3rd point- I asked some time ago about 8 shot revolvers is ESP, I was told in order to shoot in ESP gun has to fit in the box, revolvers don't have to fit in the box but if you want to run in ESP, box rule. I have won HOA at a match with revolver (ESR) against master auto shooters, if I can do it, anyone can do it, the bottom feeders do get a bit upset though. 4th point- I don't think we need another division (split). Dean
Hot Brass		#23	[-]
Posts: 618 (06/25/09 07:58:23) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	Caswell Ranch wrote: 2nd point- I think the 627Pro should (I know you can shoot it in IDPA with only 6 rds loaded) be good to go loaded with 8rds as long as the shooter is willing to tack load at six rounds, this should void the reason for the "may only load six rounds" because you would not leave live rounds on the ground, shooter would get a 3 sec gig for shooting more than 6rds without a reload, just as you would with 10rds in an auto on a 6rd limited vic stage. E.G. I would load six to start, reload with 8, if stage was 12rds no problem, if it was more than 12, tack load at the 12th round and go on. Dean Dean, This is a pretty good idea. I can see someone making the point that the 627 shooter should get an FTDR instead of a PE for shooting more than 6 rounds if they use it to avoid a reload. Now if you gave the 627 shooter 1 PE for every round over 6 it might come a little closer, but that would run afoul of other rules, so it gets a little sticky. -Capel www.gadpa.com
Caswell Ranch		#24	[-]
Posts: 11 (06/25/09 15:29:58) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	Capel, I think you're on the money with an FTDR if they shoot 8 to avoid a reload, say on a 14rd stage, but any round count above that they would have to load anyway so I would go for PE on stage with 15-18rds. I just got another 627Pro for shooting ICORE and would like to shoot it in IDPA but it would be stupid to do loading 6rds only, I even have my 200gr .38spl loads ready running major PF and still in 38spl pressure. Regards, Dean
Caswell Ranch		#25	[-]
Posts: 12 (06/25/09 16:51:31) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	Now I would love to run the 627Pro in ESP if the powers that be would O.K. it, I've had people say "you revolver shooters have it easy in the back half of the classifier, you can speed load from one side of the baracade to the other we have to tack load" etc. If we can shoot the 8 shot guns we will tack load like the auto's, no problem. Dean
Hot Brass		#26	[-]
Posts: 620 (06/25/09 23:24:59) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	Dean, the problem is giving a different penalty based on the number of required rounds for the stage. That would be a can of worms... -Capel www.gadpa.com
Bones		#27	[-]
Posts: 563 (06/26/09 09:32:15) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	Dean, Capel, What PF do you get with 230 gr ball 45 ACP (full charge service ammunition - not light target ammunition - those words were lifted from the rulebook) from a 4" 625? I get 170000 PF from both of mine. How about this: 1) Let the 7 and 8 rd revolvers in ESR as it stands at 165000 PF (easily done with 45 ACP 230 gr ball or 357 Magnum 158 gr ammunition). Frankly, an 8 shot 357 Magnum is no more or less viable/ridiculous for concealed carry than a 6 shot 45 ACP. Making those guns load 6 rd is excluding them. 2) Let all revolvers in ESP at 125000 PF. That gives everyone a place to play at both power levels and with both loading systems - and you get to spank the semi-autos in thier own house. Good? Consider the nightmare that messing with PF or loading technique in an existing Division creates relative to Classification times, etc. (recall the great gnashing of teeth/bloodletting that ensued when ESR was created). And do you really want to compete and win in a "Special Needs" Division? That is exactly how a lower PF or lower match bump requirement change would be viewed. I would guess Dean does not. I don't. We have done a great job of growing the revolver Divisions - we easily exceed USPSA participation levels at Regional and National level competitions. This is simply Phase 3 in our clever plan to achieve total World Domination. Craig PS - I like my 627 Pro too. Last Edited By: Bones 06/26/09 10:56:49. Edited 1 times.
Caswell Ranch		#28	[-]
Posts: 13 (06/26/09 14:49:57) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	Hi Graig, My loads in .45acp run 168-170PF but it is hard on you after some time, I have a Mod-10, Mod-67, 686, M-36, 625, 627Pro and 657 all moon clip guns would be nice to run the 38's, when the split came down it should have been just that, a split, PF should have been the same as in ESP-SSP, the focus should not have gone to just .45acp. (full charge service ammunition-not light target) yep seen that, people run .45acp,40S&W etc in auto's all the time down loaded to just over 125PF, hell I've done it many times (it's a game). I know that you know how it is to shoot .357 in a match (nationals the other year when you had some bad ammo and had to shoot mag) I also remember your comments after the match, along with a chat we had about stress fractures in hands and arms because of stepping up practice for a major match last year at the Cup. ANYWAY , *I would shoot a revolver in ESP in a heart beat if they would O.K. it*
SixShooterPerry		#29	[-]
Posts: 118 (06/26/09 14:56:13) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	"We have done a great job of growing the revolver Divisions - we easily exceed USPSA participation levels at Regional and National level competitions." Someone is making up facts! USPSA 2008 Revolver Nationals = 29 shooters IDPA 2008 Nationals = 27 shooters in 2 revolver divisions These are the results from just 5 of the matches I have shot this year IDPA 2009 Frozen Penguin = 19 revolver shooters in 2 divisions 2009 MD State Championship = 10 in 2 2009 PA State Championship = 10 in 2 USPSA 2009 VA/MD Sectional = 12 2009 South Carolina Sectional = 12 Looks like a draw to me with both having about the same amount, at least from the matches I have shot. Of course the big winner is the IRC with 209!!!!!!!!! Perry
Bones		#30	[-]
Posts: 564 (06/27/09 12:03:00) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	Dean 357 Mag is pretty good for about 20 rd. Agreed, it is no fun in a 200 rd match. In fact - it hurts. Let's see what we can do about the 627 in ESP at 125000 PF. It will be hard to win the 125000 PF 45 ACP argument - especially when so many are clamoring for "off the shelf" availability. I know you can win in any Division with a 627 - the 125000 PF will just make it hurt less. Perry, More likely, someone has been selecting facts to suit their needs. I did not reference State matches. The 3 largest matches in the country are the Outdoor Nationals, the (S&W WinterChampionships) Indoor Nationals and the Carolina Cup. As much as I like Kevin, I wouldn't use the Frozen Penguin as a bellweather (pun intended). Would you care to add the 06-09 data for those matches to your data set? Recall the Division split happened in 2005, so that set is relevant. While your at it, go back 3 years before the split and and let us know what you find for those matches. Craig
SixShooterPerry		#31	[-]
Posts: 119 (06/27/09 15:35:55) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	Craig, You are right, as I mentioned in the previous post these are matches that I have shot at in 2009. I didn't just select matches at random. I don't see a bigger number of revolver shooters at IDPA matches when compared to USPSA. When you look at the Nationals, USPSA had 2 more revolver shooters. The Indoor Winternationals is a stand alone event and USPSA doesn't have a like match to compare it against. I have never shot the Carolina Cup and so I can't compare it to anything. What would you compare both of those matches to in USPSA? I think the MD and PA State Matches are comparible to the SC Sectional and The VA/MD Sectional. They both have around the same amount of shooter attending. I didn't go back to past years other than the nationals because they have not happened for 2009. If you want to compare the PA State to other matches held in PA the Summer Blast had 20 revolver shooters and the Area 8 had 13 (yes, I had to go back to 2008 to find those numbers). I till say the numbers are about even! What happened in 2005 is in the past, I'm looking at 2009. Perry
Caswell Ranch		#32	[-]
Posts: 14 (06/30/09 08:33:38) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	Craig, I,m up for it, so how do we get the 627Pro and other revolvers into ESP. You know the ESP shooters would have a cow if this was O.K.'d. Dean
NEPAKevin		#33	[-]
Posts: 2218 (06/30/09 14:24:10) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	In a previous thread on this board, Revolvers on the Rise: http://idpaforum.yuku.com/topic/4041 the data collected from published match results seemed to indicate an increase in the participation by revolver shooters after the split, particularly in SSR. While the data could certainly be updated and expanded, I do not know if current trends would as accurately demonstrate the effects of the division split as they would those of other factors such as the cost and supply of ammunition and reloading components and the economy in general. Kevin Schlier Poconos, PA http://www.brcv-gun.org Last Edited By: NEPAKevin 06/30/09 14:26:32. Edited 1 times.
Bones		#34	[-]
Posts: 565 (06/30/09 14:42:57) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	Dean, Make your thoughts known here and on the IDPA rules chat forum (http://beachbunnysoftware.com/rulechat/)- a letter to Robert at HQ wouldn't hurt either. Next, get your milking stool shined up.... Craig
Caswell Ranch		#35	[-]
Posts: 15 (06/30/09 15:09:15) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	Craig, The link is not working, any ideas? Dean PS It would be a sorry person (shooter) that would protest a revolver shooting against a 9mm--1911 or Glock etc.
Gregg Kratochvil		#36	[-]
Posts: 361 (06/30/09 17:01:15) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	Try http://beachbunnysoftware.com/rulechat/phpBB/
Caswell Ranch		#37	[-]
Posts: 16 (06/30/09 17:48:36) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	Gregg, Thanks, that works. Dean
Caswell Ranch		#38	[-]
Posts: 17 (06/30/09 22:36:26) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	O.K. I posted stuff on that site, nobody is over there bub. Dean
Bones		#39	[-]
Posts: 566 (07/01/09 08:00:41) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	Dean, The all-seeing eye is there... Not everyone who visits that site posts. "PS It would be a sorry person (shooter) that would protest a revolver shooting against a 9mm--1911 or Glock etc. " Indeed, it will. I already met some at an "outlaw" local match. Craig
Gregg Kratochvil		#40	[-]
Posts: 362 (07/01/09 10:23:50) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	I'll be ready if they decide to make any changes. I just bought an 8 shot 627. It's taken be this long to learn how to count to six, I'll have to start all over now.

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