COF for Non-Sanctioned Club Match

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JohninBC.czechpistols82792	COF for Non-Sanctioned Club Match	Lead	[-]
Posts: 3 (05/27/09 15:14:41) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	Tags : None Hi Guys, This is my first post and I am seeking a little wisdom from all you pros. I am the unofficial MD for our next local club match. One of the COF's I want to run has run afoul of the local 'rules guru' in that it calls for 2 paper and 3 pepper poppers. Now I know that according to the rules this isn't really according to Hoyle but my feeling is...So What? This is, as I said, a non-sanctioned club match. If the stage is fun why not run it and have fun with it. Am I out of line here or what. Regards, John
freeidaho		#1	[-]
Posts: 3070 (05/27/09 16:00:08) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	John, Welcome to the best place on the internet to discuss IDPA. You can keep your target arrangement and be rules compliant too, if you make each paper target get 5 rounds each. Then you have 10 paper rounds and 3 steel rounds or a ratio of 3/13 or 23% steel shots. This is below the 25% maximum for a string. But to answer your question directly, there is no phrase in the rulebook that says "Sanctioned Matches Only." Your club signed an affiliation form that said all matches would be run using the rulebook. That way everyone knows what to expect. You can image what it would be like to shoot IDPA at several different clubs if each club ignored some part of the rulebook. You sound like a creative guy, I bet you can satisfy the rules and the intent of the stage too once you put your mind to it. Ken Reed
Steve Koski		#2	[-]
Posts: 780 (05/27/09 16:07:00) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	Most stages should follow the guidelines, but I don't have a problem with the occasional stage that doesn't. I've even seen the occasional sanctioned match stages that didn't follow the guidelines. Koski
RobMoore		#3	[-]
Posts: 336 (05/27/09 16:18:13) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	Same here. We use a plate rack and run various strings as a substitute for when the bay is too muddy to run the stage we wanted to run. I don't see a problem with that. Heck, the Blackwater 08 match had an entire shoothouse taken over by the Coast Guard last minute, so they improvised with a course on the steel range. 100% steel shots, but it turned out to be one of the best stages of the match. Loads of fun.
JohninBC.czechpistols82792	Fair Enough	#4	[-]
Posts: 4 (05/27/09 17:18:49) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	freeidaho wrote: John, Welcome to the best place on the internet to discuss IDPA. You can keep your target arrangement and be rules compliant too, if you make each paper target get 5 rounds each. Then you have 10 paper rounds and 3 steel rounds or a ratio of 3/13 or 23% steel shots. This is below the 25% maximum for a string. But to answer your question directly, there is no phrase in the rulebook that says "Sanctioned Matches Only." Your club signed an affiliation form that said all matches would be run using the rulebook. That way everyone knows what to expect. You can image what it would be like to shoot IDPA at several different clubs if each club ignored some part of the rulebook. You sound like a creative guy, I bet you can satisfy the rules and the intent of the stage too once you put your mind to it. Ken Reed Thanks for you insight Ken. I have read a lot of your posts and I certainly respect your opinion. It is certainly true that we all agree to abide by the rules. However I see other posters here are not quite so hardcore when it comes to dotting the i's and crossing every T. As they have pointed out some very high level Sanctioned matches have been run in contravention of some of the rules. Apparently their sanction was ?not? pulled. In our local circumstance our next nearest club is some 15+ hours drive away. Our local matches are IT. Same old faces shooting basicaly the same old stages. If we throw in a little extra steel here or there or push the round limit once in a while ... so what? Seems to me it is more important to put on fun stages and keep the interest of our shooters, and hopefully attract some new ones, than nitpicking the rules at our club matches. Most days we are lucky to get 10 guys show up! That being said I am 100% in my belief that all sanctioned matches should follow the rule book...this way every shooter there has the same level playing field to compete on. Ken, I am curious....in all your years putting on all levels of matches have you never designed or run a stage that was not 100% rule compliant? Regards, John Last Edited By: JohninBC 05/27/09 17:38:48. Edited 1 times.
Steve Koski		#5	[-]
Posts: 781 (05/27/09 17:26:07) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	Trick question!!!
JohninBC.czechpistols82792		#6	[-]
Posts: 5 (05/27/09 17:40:04) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	Steve Koski wrote: Trick question!!! Well it wasn't meant to be! If you can explain to me how or why it is a 'trick question' I will withdraw it. Regards, John
freeidaho		#7	[-]
Posts: 3073 (05/27/09 19:10:29) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	John, First to your challenge/question. Yes and No. I have never created a stage that I knew violated the rules, so no. However, I have created a couple of stages that did not follow the rules, and I did not know it at the time, so yes. I noticed these stages when I went back and reviewed some stages I created early in my addiction to this sport. As for your club being isolated, I wonder, how does that matter? What if one of your shooters goes to a sanctioned match and has learned your local version of the rules. He is basically hosed, because he learned "almost IDPA" instead of IDPA. Note that I belong to a club that is quite geographically isolated, and some of us still manage to make it to several sanctioned matches a year, including the Nats. I guess I am going to have to contact HQ and have them remove the sentence that sayx "follow any of the rules you like and ignore the rest." ( It is a joke.... honest!) I personally believe that saying that a stage is just too good to follow the rules is a crutch. Everyone everywhere has their little justification for not following one rule or another. I truly don't understand it. I mean no disrespect, which I type here because I don't know how you will perceive my well meaning words above. Maybe we see things differently cause I've agreed to be an AC, and my allegience is to the sport. Individual stages will come and go, but the examples that are set are very hard to erase. My best to you, (good question by the way) Ken Reed Last Edited By: freeidaho 05/27/09 19:16:30. Edited 1 times.
JohninBC.czechpistols82792		#8	[-]
Posts: 7 (05/27/09 19:48:10) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	Ken, Thanks for your honest answer. My only point in mentioning our location is simply that it is sometimes hard to keep it 'fun'. Like I said - same old faces, same old stages' and so I personally think it is more important to have fun so that we look forward to getting together. As far as sanctioned matches go there aren't any other than Provincials. The closest other would be Ontario Provincials - just too far and I can't afford it. I was hoping to go to Alberta to shoot in their Provincials but so far it hasn't worked out. You are probably right in that being an AC is bound to affect how you look at these issues. Personally I think I will put my COF on the way I like it. After all I AM the MD!and everyone likes to shoot poppers. Don't like it? Do it yourself next time LOL... Regards, John
wilinaz1911		#9	[-]
Posts: 36 (05/27/09 23:39:58) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	The paper to steel ratio is for the entire match, not a stage. You can run a 2 paper target/3 steel stage as long as you use enough paper on the rest of the stages to get the ratio within specs. Bill
Hot Brass		#10	[-]
Posts: 581 (05/28/09 00:04:45) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	wilinaz1911 wrote: The paper to steel ratio is for the entire match, not a stage. You can run a 2 paper target/3 steel stage as long as you use enough paper on the rest of the stages to get the ratio within specs. Bill Bill, You need to read the rule book again. Pay particular attention to page 13 paragraph CoF 18. -Capel www.gadpa.com
LJH		#11	[-]
Posts: 51 (05/28/09 06:53:48) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	John my belief is you are going down a slippery slope in the guise of keeping it fun. In your posts you have mentioned two violations already ("extra rounds once in a while and the extra steel). What is next? 18 round mags, optics, you can see where this CAN go. Adding strings to a stage can make the round count as large as you would like. Doing quick math, with only 9 targets (18 rounds max) you can come up with millions of combinations. Even limited areas, limited props can still offer unlimited challenges. If you want to throw in a "fun"stage as a non scored stage, go ahead, but keep it separate. To answer some of the other questions: Have I ever setup an illegal stage. Yes. Once it was pointed out (after the fact), it was never used again. Have I seen illegal stages at sanctioned matches. Yes. Most were missed in the approval stage by AC. Does it make it right, NO. It is a mistake, not a precedent. I do not think you will have any problem staying within the COF rules and offer fun and challenging stages As far as the other, run side matches and make some extra bucks for the club. Larry
detonicscustom	A different option	#12	[-]
Posts: 89 (05/28/09 15:29:55) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	Guys (and Gals, I know you are out there), What you are proposing can be a slippery slope. If the match is listed as an IDPA match than it does need to follow the rules. Sure sometimes a illegal stage slips through but we are only human. Sometimes we don't realize it at untill someone points it out. The Blackwater match organizers had a problem handed to them at the last minute when the host range had to pull a bay from their use.Yes the stage was illegal but I have talked with the MD and we got things worked out so that this would not happen in the future. I did not pull their sanction after the fact but I would have if I thought they were willfully disregarding the rules. Actually it is more likely that I would withdraw the clubs affiliation than penalize the match participants. I have found that one of the fastest ways to piss off your local shooters is to run IDPA matches by "local rules" and then they go elsewhere and get hammered with penalties. This gets worse when they have paid for it (like a provincial) and get hit with PE's, FTDR's or even DQ's. It has happen because of these "local rules." There have been a couple of good ideas offered here to comply with the rules. One other is that IDPA only requires that you hold a minimum of 6 matches a year. There are a lot of clubs that run Steel matches or IPSC or even "fun" matches on the other dates. Frank Glover has a good saying before putting on one of these matches, "IDPA requires that I host six matches a year... this is not one of them." As long as you don't refer to it as an IDPA match and make sure you let everyone know before hand that the next months match is not an IDPA match then there are not problems. I hope this gives you some other options to explore. Robert Ray IDPA HQ "This soldier, I realized, must have had friends at home and in his regiment; yet he lay there deserted by all except his dog. I looked on, unmoved, at battles which decided the future of nations. Tearless, I had given orders which brought death to thousands. Yet here I was stirred, profoundly stirred, stirred to tears. And by what? By the grief of one dog." ~Napoleon Bonaparte, on finding a dog beside the body of his dead master, licking his face and howling, on a moonlit field after a battle. Napoleon was haunted by this scene until his own death.
JohninBC.czechpistols82792		#13	[-]
Posts: 9 (05/28/09 16:34:45) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	Thanks for all the input guys. I really appreciate it. I guess it is just me and a very few others who have a slightly looser view of this subject. Well....I asked for words of wisdom and I definitely got some. SOOOOOO.......back to the drawing board we go. Regards, John
Jim Watson		#14	[-]
Posts: 559 (05/29/09 11:11:43) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	Let's see, now. I shot a sanctioned match recently that had a stage at 33% steel - 4 hits on steel, 8 on paper. Could I call them up and have that illegal stage deleted from the results? Why bother? That was not the stage I bombed out on.
SixShooterPerry		#15	[-]
Posts: 115 (05/31/09 19:22:25) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	John, This type of thing happens more than anyone realizes. I was at a local match a few weeks ago and the first stage had 3 shoot targets and 2 non threat targets. When I mentioned it to the MD his reply was "well this is just a local match". This type of reply just burns my britches. This is an IDPA match and everyone should expect and demand that they are run by the rules. The match had not started yet and the COF could have easly been changed by adding another target or removing one of the NT. As new shooters progress through the sport they can always say "well we did this before so it must be acceptable to do when he is at a state level match. Nothing could be further from the truth. I agree with Robert, call it a fun match, a run and gun match or whatever you like. Just say we will be using IDPA rules for cover, conceilment and equiptment. Problem solved. If you call it IDPA, make it IDPA. Perry

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