j ted murphy wrote:If they are awarding prizes by order of finish, they are creating an issue that this sport doesn't normally have. Competitors are going to throw a fit if a call knocks them out of a valuable prize, that is why IDPA doesn't do it that way and the sport remains more friendly. I would think that calls for the MD to make a decision go way up with valuable prizes on the line. I suspect that the language in the match book was to combat this situation that they created.
It really is not that difficult for the MD to give a shooter a minute or so of their time. I do not see why this is even an issue.
Ted
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AZ IDPA Championship Dispute Fee
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 Gregg Kratochvil |
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Posts: 336 (05/05/09 07:40:38) |
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 j ted murphy |
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Posts: 3580 (05/05/09 11:25:03) |
Greg, I agree with you. I hsd to take a break from typing though It's hard to write a lot in my iPhone.
I do believe the thought process behind awarding the guns in order of finish is the kind of flawed thinking that some competitors use to thwart the rules. The rules say that guns must be given out by random drawing. Taking advantage of the fact the rules don't say " all competitors" is bad form and in poor taste IMO.
Cover Me, I'm going Slo-Mo!
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Steve J |
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Posts: 186 (05/05/09 11:34:03) |
Awarding prizes by order of finish and setting a monetary barrier to challenging calls dovetail togther all too nicely, but that's pure speculation.
Steve J
A17557 |
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freeidaho |
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Posts: 3010 (05/05/09 12:45:04) |
Howdy, This is a very interesting thread. Before we get too much speculation, can someone please post the appropriate match booklet, or at least the page with the arbitration fee verbiage? Second, can someone please describe how all the prizes were distributed. It sounds like there was a normal drawing, then a drawing for each division for a gun. Is that right? I really didn't read it that carefully at the time, but here it the match description: The 2009 Arizona State Championship, information and forms are now available at the hosting club website, www.pimapistol.org. Email inquiries at idpa_azstate@yahoo.com. Shoot an IDPA match that will truly test your IDPA skills and abilities. SO's will shoot on Friday, May 1 and the Competitors shoot on Saturday, May 2nd. There will be 12 stages, three completely "blind" for everyone, including the SO's, plan on about 180 rounds. The stages are 100% revolver neutral so bring your wheelguns and there will be prize guns for every division, including one for the SO's, some individual "stage" awards, i.e. "Fastest Gun in Arizona", trophies per IDPA rules and additional awards to Division winners. We are also acknowledging the usual categories including Most Accurate, High Lady, High Junior, etc.. Enjoy an authentic Arizona breakfast on Sunday morning before the "man on man" Side Match, with cash prizes to the winners of that shoot. There will be incomparable benefits to those shooters who are working the match as Safety Officers, besides shooting the match for FREE other perks are being implemented for those that have experience. If you are going to only shoot one out of state match this year, make it Arizona! The weather is perfect in May, the venue is exceptional and user friendly, the stages are challenging and IDPA designed, NO "run & gun USPSA clones", match director is also the area coordinator, the match fee is reasonable, the location is accessible....and most importantly...Arizona is very "gun friendly" state. Thank you! Ken Reed
Last Edited By: freeidaho
05/05/09 13:14:44.
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Paladin |
Monday Morning Quarterbacks! | ||
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Posts: 2 (05/05/09 14:26:06) |
Gentlemen, 9mmguy, Steve J., Hot Brass, Ken Reed, Gregg K, Ted Murphy, and any others....let me answer all of your "sitting at your desks" never
went to the match opinions and judgements. Yes, I was the MD, the AC, the Club President, and the guy who worked his ass off to produce this match, with other
dedicated volunteers who didn't shoot the match.
The responses at the end of the match were..."Best match I have ever been too including the last two Nationals!", "...all IDPA matches should be run this way", "...this was the best prize distribution and system ever", "Can I come back and SO next year?", "this is what IDPA is supposed to be", "I hated the 3 blind stages the most...but that is where I had the most fun!". "You are going to do this again next year, right?" There was nothing but positive responses from 99.9% of the shooters and 100% of the SO's. All calls were consistent, because I ran every SO on the stage they would work, and they then ran everyone else, including the other SO's. I had one stage procedure disputed, which was fixed immediately. Nobody complained about SO calls because they were having too much fun shooting the stages, which for once were "true" IDPA stages and not some of the silly stuff I have seen at other matches around the country. This whole match was totally revolver neutral, I haven't seen many of those in the last 10 IDPA Stage matches I have attended. The SO's got to shoot like regular competitors, and not "hired help"; and everyone on both days, competitors and SO's, was done by 3:00PM instead of shooting into the evening. Nobody had any 1-2 hour waits on stages, and nobody seemed to "%++!+" about being able to access the random prize table drawing around lunchtime on Saturday. As for the guns, if any of you "talkers and armchair MD's" had been at the match you would have seen that there was a gun for each division, handed out by raffle, but limited to placement. There was a gun handed out to all the SO's and Staff that participated, handed out at random...and there was a gun handed out, by random raffle to ALL COMPETITORS, and not available to anyone who had already won one! You know what, unlike many match raffles I have been too, the "homeys" didn't walk away with all the gun prizes. Nobody abused my Safety Officers, everybody got gun and equipment checks, trophies were handed out based on IDPA rules, and the majority of the money was spent on trophies($1500+)....just ask anyone who got one....and they weren't some of the "cheesy" stuff I have seen handed out at other matches (certificates, $2 medals, etc). As for the arbitration "fee".....if any of you were at the match, you would have immediately known that was injected for humor....though it wasn't really necessary, as the match was well organized and ran almost perfectly! Some people...sitting at home...just can't take a joke! Maybe you guys should be out practicing more? As for calling it like USPSA, which I also shoot, not hardly! We had 12 stages, 3 of which were totally blind to everyone, but the maintenance guy and myself, who built them. NOBODY....AND I MEAN NOBODY saw or ran these stages until they were ready to be run on match day....can any of you other Match Directors out there say the same? Even the hometown shooters saw them for the first time on "game day". We put all the money back into the prize guns, the trophies, the breakfast, the stages, the organization, and the good time that I think was had by all who were there. So....if any of you "gentlemen" want to get off your butts, and travel down to Pima Pistol Club, in Tucson, Arizona, and shoot a real good IDPA State Match; the way a match is supposed to run, you have an open invitation. If you still have "problems" with this match, give me a call personally and I will set you straight, or email me personally and I will set you more straight. These matches take time, energy, commitment, and money...all of which was dedicated to making this a successful match, which I believe was the result. Maybe some of you out there could "learn a few lessons"...if you want the match booklet, give me a call....or even better....sign up for the next Arizona State Match, pay the fee, and shoot it like everyone else does! Bpb Lee P.S. Ted, I hope you have the "stones" to put this up as it is written, and not dump it to be PC. |
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Steve Koski |
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Posts: 743 (05/05/09 14:55:55) |
Thanks for the update Bob. Sounds like a great match. Wish I could have been there.
So was the $100 required to dispute a call to the MD? And what does "limited to placement" mean in the drawings for the division gun? How did you get the SO's to shoot like everyone else (and not like normal)? Thanks, Steve Koski |
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j ted murphy |
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Posts: 3581 (05/05/09 14:59:57) |
Paladin writes, "if any of you "talkers and armchair MD's" had been at the match you would have seen that
there was a gun for each division, handed out by raffle, but limited to placement."
Mr Lee, Limiting a raffle by placement is against the rules. I am pleased your match was so absolutely textbook perfect, but I submit that breaking the rules is breaking the rules- and a sanctioned match is not the place for it. I would rather suffer through a poorly run match that respects the IDPA rulebook than shoot a match that twists the IDPA rules as the MD sees fit. As far as the note in your rule book. Myself and many other shooters take what is written in the rulebook as official match policy. If the matchbook says there is a $100.00 arbitration fee and there is not mention that this is a joke, I will accept this as match policy. Also, it is a convenient to be able to say a written policy is "a joke" after there is fallout from said policy. I do not think I have ever took the position on this or any other forum to have to have been so negative towards a match. I did not take this position lightly, but I will stand by the IDPA rule book before anything else in the sport. I certainly have made my mistakes, but I have never overtly tried to thwart the rules. Understand that I am most unhappy at taking this course of action, but I really take issue with any kind of perversion of IDPA's, prize table rules. Call me an armchair Match Director if you want- but as someone who has run quite a few major matches including the last two IDPA National Championships, I might know a thing or two about running a match. Cordially, Ted Murphy A02127 Area Coordinator, Eastern Pennylvania/New Jersey First Generation Safety Officer Instuctor Match Director Pennsylvania State IDPA Championship 2004, 2005, 2006 Match Director IDPA National Champinships 2007, 2008 Match Director Double Action IDPA, Yeadon Pennsylvania
Cover Me, I'm going Slo-Mo!
Last Edited By: j ted murphy
05/05/09 15:04:09.
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Bob Hostetter |
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Posts: 64 (05/05/09 17:18:52) |
Just a thought...
The current HQ approved method of dealing with complaints is silly at best. The is absolutely no oversight, no transparency, in fact it is left to the personal opinion of the Match Director. And we all know how carefully IDPA selects and trains Match Directors. I will pass on offering an opinion on if a 'Protest' fee should be charged, but the process should be improved and clearly defined in the rulebook. Otherwise you have actions such as occurred in Nevada at the state match this year. Professional quality leadership is something that is lacking in IDPA, as is even basic training requirements for any position beyond that of a Safety Officer. Until professional standards are defined and required for senior match staff the world will continue to look at IDPA as a back country relative that everyone accepts as less then it should be. Of course in order to train match staff we would need a well written rulebook and that has proven to be a fairly insurmountable burden by itself. By the way, I have been to one Nationals as a shooter (one was enough), and a several more as an interested bystander looking for place to invest sponsorship money. Bob Lee runs a better match then any of the IDPA Nationals I have been to...
Bob Hostetter
Calif IDPA Area Coordinator |
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Bubba |
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Posts: 1476 (05/05/09 20:25:31) |
Mr Lee.
I don't recall anyone saying you put on a match shooters didn't enjoy. My own experience shooting in Arizona several years ago was not as well run. I recall waiting 2 hours at a stage until the end of the day. And then returning the next day and waiting another two hours....for that same stage. But, as has been mentioned, that was a different crew and a different time. You don't deserve that reputation. However that perception has kept me from visiting friends I have made in the IDPA community from Arizona. It's sad that one experience can color an event for any number of years later. So your design and logistics of this match appear from the reports to be well appreciated. For that you are to be commended. Many of us who have been around since 2000 and earlier understand how difficult that task can be. The attempt at humor over a call disagreement may have been ill advised in official match documentation. It obviously has some history locally that made it funny to Arizona based shooters. However, many people who do travel around to matches all over the country tend to look at the match booklet as their guide as to what is expected. They have no perspective on the local humor and might be tempted to take that type of information at face value. It might have been better to make that joke in the shooter's briefing. I've seen Frank Glover do just that on a number of occasions. Again.. this is hindsight and I'm willing to let this go as many stand up comics have to do... a joke that bombed to some of the audience. What you did not address in your emotional response to the detractors is what many seem to see as a clear violation of IDPA rules. I will agree our rule book is not nearly as clear as it could be. And I am optimistic we have better versions and days ahead for our sport. But some things seem pretty clear. I remember attending that state match in Arizona and watching an IPSC shooter become enraged when told they could not wear their baseball cleats. Agree with the rule or not, it is clear cleats may not be worn to shoot an IDPA match. Being mad about it or disagreeing with the rule doesn't change it. Which brings us to the point in question. In your post above you stated: QUOTE: there was a gun for each division, handed out by raffle, but limited to placement. However, in the IDPA rule book page 14 is the following..... Prizes Any merchandise donated for use as prizes will be distributed randomly. IDPA does NOT ENDORSE NOR APPROVE any type of incentive program based on shooter performance. The statement you made above seems to indicate the prizes per division were indeed limited to those shooters who performed at a specific level and were not randomly awarded to all shooters in the division. This appears to be a violation of the rule on page 14. At this point, I haven't seen an explanation that changes that impression. This seems to be a concept that would lead to the perception the Arizona State match violated IDPA rules and be closer to similar awards given in other shooting sports. Again.. Not saying it was or wasn't one way or another.. but the perception is still there. And perception can be a very dangerous thing. Personally, I might have tried to get a ruling from HQ on something that could be perceived so negatively. I don't know if this was attempted or not. Without any explanation of why awards were given based on performance, it's easy for a lot of people to think it was not approved by HQ. If you would like to rationally explain the logic behind these awards, I'm sure many of us would appreciate understanding to clear these perceptions the rules were violated. Again, thank you for your effort and time to put on such a well received match by many who shot the match. All of us appreciate how much hard work is involved. All the best.
Last Edited By: Bubba
05/05/09 20:28:49.
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Paladin |
Gun Drawing | ||
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Posts: 3 (05/05/09 22:33:59) |
Gentlemen, I know what the rulebook says...."any prize DONATED has to be in a random raffle"....well, semantics aside, NONE of the guns were donated!
They were specifically purchased by the Pima Pistol Club Board of Directors as a match expense with the intent that they would be given out as specified. The
only guns that were "free" , and not purchased were given out by random drawing....hence, compliance with the rules. Everything that was
"donated" was given out by random drawing, so as I see it, the core rule was followed, and would stand up to anyone's scrutiny. If anyone has a
problem with that definition, they better "bone up" on their legal background! As for the arbitration fee...."your kidding,
right"....nobody out there is dumb enough to really believe that I'd collect a $100 fee...though I know a few MD's that would probably would have
liked too over the last couple of years. I have already had conversations with Robert Ray on both of these topics, and he was made aware of the circumstances
and the specifics. As for me, I grow weary of the "gilted bilge" that fills this forum from time to time....the only reason I am responding to this
is because a couple of my SO's, who did a great job by the way, informed me of this chatter. My answer is, if you have some rule problems, be proactive,
call Bill Wilson yourselves and politic for different or better rules, call your AC's and ask them for clearer and more defined rules, pick up a hammer and
build a stage, design a match, whatever....or just ask him to "fire me", frankly I don't care! Bob Lee
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Steve Koski |
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Posts: 744 (05/05/09 23:45:58) |
Bob Lee:
Bob - I am glad you put on such a good match. But I'm disappointed that you would allow such a trick to be pulled over one word. Let's look at some other words in the rule book: "IDPA is a Trophy ONLY Club based sport. Due to the trophy only status of IDPA, a large burden has been taken off the match organizers since they do not have to worry about soliciting cash and merchandise prizes for their events." Any merchandise donated for use as prizes will be distributed randomly. IDPA does NOT ENDORSE NOR APPROVE any type of incentive program based on shooter performance. So out of all of that language, you found that the word "donated" outweighs everything else. So "trophy only" is dead forever, so long as at least $.01 was paid. Another rule bites the dust. Now it's easy for anyone to get around that rule forever. There are a few people out there (many around here) that MD, enter scores, SO, train SO's, etc. The IDPA core certainly doesn't want to loose talent. Don't let this run you off or make you bitter. Take this criticism like a man. Koski |
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Steve Koski |
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Posts: 745 (05/05/09 23:47:37) |
God help IDPA if other sanctioned matches start pulling this stunt.
Koski |
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pvgeltz |
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Posts: 13 (05/05/09 23:53:16) |
As an attendee and SO at the Az State 2009 championship I'll offer my two cents. First, the gun draws. There were guns offered by division and placement.
The top 3 finishers of each classification in each division were eligible. Five divisions x four classifications x the top three finishers = 60 shooters. In a
match of approximately 100 shooters that is 60%. Wow I finally got a word problem right! Additionally there was a general raffle of a fire arm for all the
shooters and another for the SO's. To date I have yet to hear complaints by any of the participants either here or through the club. If there was motive to
incentivize shooters it more than likely was done in an attempt to encourage more participation in the lesser represented divisions. Headquarters may not
approve but I fail to see where such a practice is expressly forbidden.
Second; the protest fee was intended as humor and anyone who attended the shooters briefing knew and appreciated this. It's time to bury this horse, whatever is left of it. Finally, I recall a forum discussion about match fees and prize tables where many were happy to forego spiffy prizes for lower match fees. This match offered both, along with shooting challenges that are the most consistent with the spirit of the game that I have ever seen. If a MD decides to offer prizes in an unorthodox manner to foster competition and intrest amongst shooters it can only benefit the sport. Trey Billingsley |
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Steve Koski |
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Posts: 746 (05/06/09 00:08:33) |
Trey,
"If a MD decides to offer prizes in an unorthodox manner to foster competition and intrest amongst shooters it can only benefit the sport. " Bull! If a MD decides to award prizes based on shooting, it will turn decent people into a-holes and you'll really need the $100 dispute fee. These lessons have already been learned? Why do you want to learn them again? So if you like the percentages, and nobody complains, you can do whatever you want? Why even have a rule book? Koski |
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Hot Brass |
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Posts: 524 (05/06/09 00:41:40) |
Bob,
My only contribution to this thread has been "I would anticipate that HQ will have a problem with this." I guess I was wrong. Cool off, no one here wants to see you bail out on the sport. I'm also an AC, club president, MD and I've run 4 (working on 5) sanctioned matches, so I know the amount of work that goes into pulling one of these off. My hat is off to you for your effort, but you can't be surprised that not everyone agrees with your interpretation of the rules.
-Capel
www.gadpa.com |
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Bones |
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Posts: 531 (05/06/09 07:02:58) |
Damn.
... so does this mean I can't mail all my backpay invoices for protest fees? I got busy last night and have the first batch of several dozen addressed, stamped and ready to go. I was even browsing my Midway catalog and had the money spent.... Thanks for all your work Bob(s). Putting a match on is hard work. Putting on one that runs as smoothly as you described is even harder. Pulling off true blind stages is something I've yet to see - sorry I missed it. The rules regarding the prize/trophy awards are clear to me, but perhaps the next rulebook will provide the clarity around these issues that you feel is lacking. Like Capel, I would not have predicted HQ would have agreed to the gun prize award process as you described it. Do you think your placement award "incentive program" increased ESR or SSR competition much over what it would have been without it? When I looked at the results, I saw (5) SSR and (0) ESR shooters - is that right? (Congratulations on winning SSR by the way). Looks like SSR was the Divsion to shoot in if the gun awards went as you described. One way we're discussing increasing less populated division attendance locally is to have a "team" event within the match, where all five Divisions and 4 Classifications would be needed for each team (plaques/trophy awards only). Look for more information when the 09 CT State match information comes out. I'm glad your match went well. Best Regards, Craig
Last Edited By: Bones
05/06/09 07:38:14.
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freeidaho |
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Posts: 3011 (05/06/09 08:53:16) |
Trey,
I am glad it was a great match. But unfortunately you can see how a great match is eclipsed by two departures from the rules. While your numbers show the departure from the rules, with due respect, if I understand how the guns were distributed, the math goes like this. (from the scores posted on the Pima web site) CDP: Glenn Shelby, Michael Lehner, and Larry Johnson had a 1 in 3 chance of winning a gun. (top 3 finishers by total time) ESP: Yutaka Yokomachi, Brian Buller and Bruce Funk had a 1 in 3 chance of winning a gun. (top 3 finishers by total time) SSP: Jim Levis, Troy Henly and Ray Kondo had a 1 in 3 chance to win a gun. (top 3 finishers by total time) SSR: Bob Lee, John Bombardier and Bill Daer had a 1 in 3 chance to win a gun. (top 3 finishers by total time) ESR: I bet someone wished they had signed up for this division. (no one registered for ESR, but if they had, would there have been a gun left over for the general shooters?) The rest of the shooters had a 1 in 92 chance of winning a gun. (96 total scores minus the 4 above) Plus the SOs had a chance to win a gun. (There is no published data to provide a probability with.) To contrast this, if the rules had been followed, there would have been a 5 in 96 chance for every shooter to win a gun. Plus the SO gun. Ken Reed On another note, it does look like there was at least one shooter that shot the match for score and knew about the blind stages.
Last Edited By: freeidaho
05/06/09 09:39:51.
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Bill Nesbitt |
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Posts: 488 (05/06/09 09:33:52) |
I was looking at the results from this match. 365 total Procedural Errors. It looks like only 3 shooters shot a procedural free match. 297 FTNs. 104 Non Threat
hits. 2 FTDRs. Must have been a tough match.
I haven't seen a blind stage yet where you couldn't figure out about what was in it by listening to the first few shooters. I don't think blind stages have a place in sanctioned matches. 
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freeidaho |
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Posts: 3012 (05/06/09 11:20:20) |
Bones wrote:Bones, Brilliant. Thank you! Ken Reed |
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Steve Koski |
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Posts: 747 (05/06/09 13:14:44) |
It is unfortunate that those who work the hardest are often the most criticized. I'm pretty sure everyone here understands that the AC's, MD's,
etc. do a hell of a lot of work. That they get "rewarded" with criticism is too bad, but unavoidable I suppose.
Things would be worse without constructive criticism and some sort of visible feedback mechanism. Bob - Thanks for running a great match. I wish I could've been there. Koski |
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