Not a big deal for me but want to make sure I fully understand the rule. Don't want to make the same mistake twice.
Boats
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Boats |
Is this a procedural ? |
Lead | |
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Stage is limited Vickers 12 rounds total. Load mag with 6 shots go to slide lock then re-load and 6 more. After the stage my pistol was at slide lock. RSO
asked how many rounds were in the mag. I loaded both mags with 6 rounds and told him so. He called a procedural for not loading the 2nd mag to division
capacity. I know there is an advantage to only loading 6 you don't have to count. Stage instruction said load with 6 rounds go to slide lock. Was not
specific they meant first mag only and the walk through did not clarify either
Not a big deal for me but want to make sure I fully understand the rule. Don't want to make the same mistake twice. Boats |
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Steve Koski |
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It seems ticky tacky to me, but I'm not sure.
However, you should have loaded your second mag to capacity in case you had a malfunction and had to eject a live/dud round or two on the ground. Steve Koski |
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Steve J |
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Yes, a procedural if the COF instructions were to download the FIRST magazine to 6 rounds. Per IDPA rules all magazines (unless otherwise directed in the COF
instructions) must be loaded to division capacity after the start signal. Downloading on your own in order to not shoot extra rounds can get you up to an FTDR
at a sanctioned match.
If the stage instructions were not clear, then shame on them. What Steve K said too about malfunctions. Another area where people goof and get procedurals is where you have an unloaded start, and after the beep an SSP or ESP shooter shoots 11 rounds before going to slide lock. Divison capacity is 10. All magazines after the beep must be at division capacity.
Steve J
A17557
Last Edited By: Steve J
12/19/08 17:58:22.
Edited 3 times.
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Steve Koski |
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Steve J - I've seen that more than a couple times (unloaded gun, 11 rounds in mag).
Koski |
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Steve J |
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Steve Koski wrote:Yep, and they get a procedural finger. 11 rounds are ok if you're topping off. Not ok if it's an unloaded start.
Steve J
A17557 |
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Boats |
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Read the rule book again and I agree it was a procedural. My future default mode will be to load all mags to division capacity. Only down load if
specifically instructed in writing. I have a couple of excuses for not reading the COF carefully but no matter it's my responsibility nobody elses.
That's an interesting point on dud or clearing jams retaining enough to finish the course of fire. have to think about that one. Thanks Boats |
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Boats |
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Hold on thinking about that. Since division capacity SSP is 10 in the mag one in the chamber 2nd & 3rd mags all have to be loaded to 10. Correct ?
Boats |
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Steve Koski |
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Correct.
If the stage called for you to start with an unloaded gun, then the first mag also has to have 10 rounds in it. Koski |
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Steve J |
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Boats wrote:Absolutely, allowing SSP and ESP shooters to achieve division capacity plus one in the chamber with a hicap mag loaded to 11 is simply a courtesy. It is the shooter's responsibility not to screw it up. At the start signal you are only allowed 11 in the gun and two additional magazines with 10 rounds each.
Steve J
A17557 |
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RobMoore |
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Sounds like a "procedural trap" to me. If an SO gave me the +3 finger for that, I'd give him my middle one right after. Calls like that turn
people off to our sport. There is no reason to penalize people for loading both mags to 6 rounds when its 12 rounds limited.
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drizzico |
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Devils Advocate Here:
By requiring your reload magazines to be at full capacity the scenario present provides the shooter with an opportunity to make the error. This way that if the shooter was ever in a real world situation where he needed to make several split second decisions he will make the correct ones every time. And if that is the case wouldn't downloading your second mag so as not to encourage getting a procedural, blatant gaming? And if it is blatant gaming, wouldn't a FTDR be more appropriate in this situation? That being said, based on the way my match director and fellow shooters trained me when I was first learning to shoot IDPA I think the procedural was the correct call. When we have a stage that is limited and that stage requires a re-load on the clock we always get this question on what capacity should the reload mags be at. We always tell them to load to division capacity. So that they will have the opportunity for a brain fart. If after that they still download they get a procedural. (Or based on what I said in the devils advocate part maybe they should get an FTDR...) Something to think about. Dave |
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Boats |
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Understand the rule now. Don't want anybody to think I have been under a rock last year and half shooting IDPA but have been using my everyday carry
pistol. CDP Combat Commander that will not load to division capacity anyway so just filled the mags up for stages. Last month bought a plastic pistol for SSP
that holds over capacity. Never had to think about it before.
On the SO and procedural. It was clear on the stage instruction. I was helping with set up and running the clip board. My turn to shoot had not looked at the sheet. My fault not his at all. Boats |
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Glshooter |
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sounds like a cheap call to me. If anything, it would have created a disadvantage to you, not an advantage.
Dave |
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freeidaho |
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Boats, (please sign your real name)
If your gun only holds 6 in a mag, then the procedural was not warranted. Otherwise, the SO was simply following the rulebook.... as (s)he should be. SOs that don't follow the rulebook are no-ones friend. I know they are well intentioned, but it doesn't actually help IDPA in the long run. It caused variability in IDPA from one SO to another, or one club to another. Good question and discussion, thank you. Ken Reed
+-+ E-Mail: freeidaho at yahoo dot com ...............................There is a $5 fine for whining. (Chris Ledoux "5 dollar
fine")
|--\ .................................................................................................You are what you do, everything else is just talk. |---| Personal web site to display ideas:................................Gaming is an admission that you can't win on a level playing field. /----\ <http://www.parmarng.org/freeidaho/default.html> |*----/\ |-------| My rifle, pistol, shotgun, and IDPA club: +------+ <http://www.parmarng.org> |
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Mark Mayo |
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Ltd Vickers stages are generally "standards" or tests of marksmanship vs being a scenario. In general I don't like scenario stages to be ltd
Vickers or requiring a downloaded magazine unless there's a logical rationale for the COF. I recall one like that where you're seated in a cafe'
with concealment and six rounds in your gun to start. I was thinking out loud to a friend "Why the heck would I ever have my gun in that condition out in
public?"
That said, I have given a procedural to people with downloaded or overloaded magazines and will continue to do so. In a ltd Vickers stage (like the El Prez) you're requiring the shooter to not only score hits but to think at the same time. Part of that thinking process is to know not to make up a miss or a points down hit. Another reason why it's a procedural apart from what has already been mentioned here. Is, if the shooter downloads both mags it's impossible to for him to make that mistake giving him an advantage over the other shooters. Procedural earned. The "Bill Drill" is a perfect example. It's a speed/accuracy drill. Downloading the mag removes part of the stress the drill is designed to include. Regarding overloading mags I've seen guys start a COF with a mag with 11 rounds that starts with the gun empty. Their argument being that they started the COF loading to capacity. That's a no go. If the COF calls for the shooter to begin the stage with an unloaded gun the magazines still may not be above the capacity limit for the division. You'd be surprised how many times people try to slip this one past an inexperienced SO. |
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Steve Koski |
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I agree. It's a procedural.
Koski |
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mike benedict |
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That would be a procedure by the book.
I would not give anyone a procedure for that. I would just tell them to load the mags to capacity unless told otherwise and move on. Mike |
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SixShooterPerry |
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I thought procedurals were for when a shooter tries to gain an advantage. 12 shots required, 12 shots fired. What possible advantage could be gained by loading
a .45 mag with only 6 instead of 8. Weight? come on! This is nit picking at it's best. It was a Limited Vickers stage and the shooter fired the required
number of rounds. The MD need to make sure the stage description is clear, "first mag downloaded to 6, all other loaded at division capacity." Just
my 2 cents.
Perry |
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freeidaho |
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SixShooterPerry wrote: Perry, With due respect, there could be an advantage as already typed above. It keeps a shooter from taking an extra shot, which is always unplanned and then regretted a second later. On the other hand, the rule on procedurals does not mention advantage: B. Is assessed when the competitor does not follow the procedures set forth in the CoF description or when a competitor breaks a competition rule. Only one (1) PE is assessed for each type of infraction in a string of fire. If the shooter does more than one type of infraction, such as using the wrong specified hand AND fire an incorrect number of shots, a separate PE is assessed for each type of infraction. Ken Reed |
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SixShooterPerry |
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Ken,
Your right, I never thought about if from that point of view. It definitely will keep you from firing an extra shot on a Limited Vickers stage and I would call that "gaming". From now on I will give a procedural to a "seasoned shooter". I think I would still give a new shooter a pass but explain what the rule is for future reference. Thanks for changing my mind! Perry |
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freeidaho |
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Perry,
Thanks for the thanks, but I just re-typed what someone else thought up. Wish I had thought of it. Take care, Ken Reed |
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