drewbing wrote:Actually, many matches (including Nationals) have an ongoing who's-registered-to-date web page prior to the match where you can see who's pre-registered in what.
You shouldn't need notification from a MD that there aren't many shooters in your class/division, so you should switch to an auto. None of the rest of us get such a courtesey, we all have to pick our class/division and stick with it when we register. I believe doing otherwise would make a nightmare for a MD.
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Awards at Sanctioned Matches
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 Jane |
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Posts: 1082 (11/04/08 10:40:35) |
Jane - Expert on nothing with opinions on everything...
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drewbing |
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Posts: 56 (11/04/08 11:17:41) |
Good point Jane, But we also don't have the option after the fact of changing our registration because the class/division is too small, or we have to
compete against someone we know we can't beat...
The Point is that what awards are given out aren't finalized until the match is concluded. There are no shows that affect the outcomes and shrink class/divisions and can knock someone out of a trophy. None of this is the fault of the MD, IDPA, or even the people that DNF or don't show. The only person that has control over how you finish is yourself. Do your best and if that is good enough on a given day to win a trophy then take joy in that. Don't blame the rules or the MD because you don't win a trophy in any given match. Drew Bingaman
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robertbank.czechpistols82792 |
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Posts: 137 (11/04/08 11:41:57) |
drewbing - Amen, seems to me it is more about memories then prizes but that is just me.
Take Care Bob
qui desiderat pacem, praeparat bellum
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PPC Eljay |
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Posts: 195 (11/05/08 09:09:58) |
I'm still waiting for my 13th place Nationals Trophy, I think it's the highest (lowest ?) place trophy for the whole thing. ; /
Lenny, from the west coast of NJ
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INDYIDPA |
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Posts: 5 (11/06/08 21:18:20) |
Coming off my first major event as a MD, I can tell you we really need HQ to spell out awards in the next version of the rule book. I had a long chat with
Robert about the awards situation last week and he agrees it is an issue for all of us running major matches. It appears the majority of shooters expect awards
to be based upon the 1:3 rule and they really don't care about registration cut offs or shooters flipping divisions at the last moment. In my less than
humble opinion, the current rules award too may people for participation and not proficiency, especially in the divisions/classifications with few entries. My
first place SSR Expert shooter received a plaque because he was the only Expert in his division registered for the match. He made a sarcastic comment at the
awards ceremony about lack of competiton but on the other hand he would have been crying if he did not receive an award. We ordered plaques based upon the
entries in hand on the match cutoff date. We did accept entries after that date which swelled the ranks especially in sharpshooter and marksman categories.
Anyway, we ended up with a few really upset people but I think we are close to resolving the awards situation with additional plaques and certificates. Our
match was billed as a no frills match with a $50 match fee and we ended up way over budget because of the awards. I am not complaining.. I learned my lesson.
Some people really care about that piece of wood or paper. I can tell you next year to keep our match fee the same we are likely going to award division champ
plaques and everyone else gets a nice certificate. The divison champs this year at our match were much more interested in receiving the DC award than a first
place plaque in their classification and division so we have them ordered DC plaques for them and they are forwarding their first place plaques on to the next
person in line. Some are sponsored shooters and I think this makes a big difference for them in the money they receive from their sponsors but I don't know
that for a fact. I would encourage all of you running majors next year to be aware of the implications of the awards rule and I would also recommend you give
HQ some feedback. It is a big challenge to run a major and awards should be the easy part, not a nightmare.
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Bones |
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Posts: 339 (11/07/08 15:58:39) |
If being a Match Director was fun, we'd need a lottery. Thanks for stepping up Jeff.
Send your lonely SSR EX to the S&W match in February. Craig
This whole semi-auto thing is just a fad...
Last Edited By: Bones
11/07/08 16:31:12.
Edited 2 times.
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Steve Koski |
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Posts: 247 (11/07/08 16:41:15) |
Semi Autos rule the world. It's a serious fad!
Koski |
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freeidaho |
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Posts: 2540 (11/07/08 17:14:26) |
Jeff, et. al.;
We order awards the week after the match. This means there is a couple weeks delay until the awards are available. Then we send them to the out of town shooters and deliver the in-town shooter awards to the next match. This has the advantage of never ordering too few, too many, or awards with the wrong wording on them, and the shooter gets their name on the award. The downside is that the shooters do not get their picture of the MD handing them an award. Even that could be solved by having a single award on hand for photographs. Another downside is that it costs a bit more in postage to deliver the out of town awards. So far we have never had anyone complain about it and we actually survey every single shooter at the match, with an email survey. The return rate is pretty high. I also believe that a match should say what they are going to do, and then do it. If your match next year advertises as trophies for Division Championships, and certificates for others, or some such, and then does that, then I believe it would be hard for a shooter to be upset with your match about it. As for changing the number of awards given at a match, I believe many matches could use the financial break it would give to change the rule to 1 in 4 or 1 in 5 get awards. Of course of our population, very few people are involved in doing the bills for major matches, and I expect the rest would be upset to some degree or another about the change. We have already heard from a guy that expects a trophy for second of three shooters. Considering a change might look like this: A 1 in 4 rule would mean 1 award for 1-7 shooters in a div/class. Then 2 awards for 8-11 shooters, 3 awards for 12-15 shooters, etc. A 1 in 5 rule would mean 1 award for 1-9 shooters in a div/class. Then 2 awards for 10-14 shooters, 3 awards for 15-19 shooters, etc. Although maybe another way of rounding would make this work better. 1 in 4 would mean 1 award for 1-4 shooters in a div/class. Then 2 awards for 5-8 shooters, 3 awards for 9-12 shooters, etc. 1 in 5 would mean 1 award for 1-5 shooters in a div/class. Then 2 awards for 6-10 shooters, 3 awards for 11-15 shooters etc. Your thoughts? Ken Reed
+-+ E-Mail: freeidaho at yahoo dot com ...............................There is a $5 fine for whining. (Chris Ledoux "5 dollar
fine")
|--\ .................................................................................................You are what you do, everything else is just talk. |---| Personal web site to display ideas:................................Gaming is an admission that you can't win on a level playing field. /----\ <http://www.parmarng.org/freeidaho/default.html> |*----/\ |-------| My rifle, pistol, shotgun, and IDPA club: +------+ <http://www.parmarng.org>
Last Edited By: freeidaho
11/07/08 17:33:00.
Edited 1 times.
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gmancdp |
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Posts: 63 (11/07/08 17:19:56) |
i've ran 5 major matches and never had a problem with the Division champ ,and then 1st 2nd and so forth....couple years ago i had counted wrong in the ssp
mm division and some shooters got xtra plaques just to get rid of them and everybody knew this up front..then the next yr we had a few left over and just
replaced the plate for the next year..it was to hard for me to turn down walk on or last minute shooters..yeah it messed up the awards...but for the extra 500
to 800 dollars made it was worth it for the club...we have a state over here that for 3 yrs they did the DC and 1st place to the same shooter..and another one
uses the certificates for awards..the MM class seems to have the most shooters, then followed by the SS class in this area..so if there are that many for a 7th
or 9th place award,then they should get one....G' Gerg
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roundgunner |
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Posts: 91 (11/07/08 18:32:01) |
I guess shooting the nationals in 350 is not that big a deal for automatics and young people, but for old guys shooting revolvers it is not that easy. I shot about 1000 rounds a month for the last 30 or so months. My mom is 77 years old and has watched some of the matches I'v shot and when she asked me why I go to great lengths to win, I tell her it's for the trophy. Today she wanted to know why even with a small group they diden't give out 1st, 2nd & 3rd place. I told her it was the way the book was written. Next she asked what the $160 was for? Oh well, I do understand why nobody else cares. I will probably move to a auto class. I wish I knew how I would have finished in SSP. I bet I could have been a lot closer to 300. Warren |
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INDYIDPA |
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Posts: 6 (11/07/08 21:49:53) |
Hey Craig,
Me and my lonely SSR Expert have been out your way 3 of the last 4 years and he never brought home any wood because he shot poorly and complained. Now he gets wood at our match despite shooting poorly and he complained. How about I send him out and you keep him. I really like Ken's ideas about mailing plaques out afterwards, especially if I can get my vendor to do it. Given this is such a major issue for some shooters, I'll likely have to make a 10% increase in match fees especially for late registrations next year. I still would like to see HQ take this on and clarify the rules on awards. Jeff |
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Jane |
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Posts: 1084 (11/08/08 08:26:54) |
As an aside on the subject of matches that prefer to mail awards... a couple of years ago I was asked to add to my scoring software the option to have the awards wizard print mailing labels for awards. For matches where registration isn't set in stone a month or two in advance, I can see the merit of that approach.
Jane - Expert on nothing with opinions on everything...
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freeidaho |
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Posts: 2541 (11/08/08 10:49:59) |
roundgunner wrote:Sir Warren, Please do not take my posts to mean that I do not care, beacuse that is not the case. I suspect it is not the case for anyone posting here. I'm an old guy, and I understand. If they were low cost I'd like for anyone that wants a trophy to get one. It doesn't change their standing in the match, so why not? On the other hand, there is the reality of match finances, which is the part I've been generally addressing, not for one match or for one individual. I pretty much always take the side of "what is best for IDPA", instead of any one individual. To whit, how many times do you read about matches that went over budget. Well this isn't Wall Street or the Government, that money comes out of the match staff's own pocket in most cases. I know for a fact that some matches have solved the bitching about not enough trophy's by buying them out of their own pocket. Talk about a recipe for disaster. I have seen it happen more than once, the guy they are disrespecting and talking bad about is the one that foots the bill for their trophies out of his own pocket. It happened again recently. And you never hear another word about it, let alone a thank you. The big three expenses in a sanctioned match, (not including the Nats which has even more costs) are the SOs shoot free or reduced cost (at least at most matches), the awards, and the prize table. These three things comprize much if not most of the budget. Yeah, there are other expenses but these are the heavy hitters. So I'm not for a new rule that makes the awards even more expensive. On the other hand, if you contact HQ maybe you can order another award for your Nats finish, that you pay for. If it is really a big deal you wouldn't mind shucking out $50 of your own money... right? I don't intend that suggestion in a mean way. But if it is really important it might be a solution for you. On the other hand if you do not do this because of the cost, well then you may be beginning to understand the issue from the side of the match staff. Have a great weekend! Ken Reed
+-+ E-Mail: freeidaho at yahoo dot com ...............................There is a $5 fine for whining. (Chris Ledoux "5 dollar
fine")
|--\ .................................................................................................You are what you do, everything else is just talk. |---| Personal web site to display ideas:................................Gaming is an admission that you can't win on a level playing field. /----\ <http://www.parmarng.org/freeidaho/default.html> |*----/\ |-------| My rifle, pistol, shotgun, and IDPA club: +------+ <http://www.parmarng.org>
Last Edited By: freeidaho
11/08/08 10:53:53.
Edited 1 times.
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magdrop |
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Posts: 18 (11/08/08 11:23:39) |
My humble opinion:
Only awards for Division and 1-3rd if applicable. No need to 4th, 8th, 12th, etc. no matter how many shooters. Persoanlized plaques or tropheys sent after match. Anything beyond that is silly IMO. Like others have said- it's mostly about doing the best you can to compete against our fellow shooters. The score sheet says enough for me. I come to sanctioned matches to compete with serious shooters and run some great COFs. I think the work involved to get goodies, etc. could be reduced to help relieve the staff. Burn out is bad for everyone. Dave |
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Glshooter |
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Posts: 69 (11/08/08 14:44:52) |
I am surprised that people mentioned not having the correct number of awards for certain divisions on the day of the match due to people changing divisions.
Other than Nationals and S&W I think every other major match I have ever been to mails out awards after the match. Trying to figure out how many awards to
have for the day of the match would be a royal pain. I wouldn't even expect it.
Dave |
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roundgunner |
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Posts: 92 (11/08/08 19:54:52) |
Sir Ken,? You are very good at expressing yourself with the keyboard. I have run many matches and have run a state Championship. Every class & division got 1,2,&3 place trophy's and certificates for those after. Shooters got lunch, and we had a prize table full of nice door prizes like reloading manuals, magazines, knives and gun parts. All donated. The SO's shot free and the club made $1500.00. The match fee was only $50. Maybe you can explain how we pay $160 match fee and not make enough money to give awards. What kind of awards were given? Most of the awards I've seen are a plaque with a plate. Can anyone post a photo of one? I know the ones I bought were nowhere near $50. I guess if it was a $50 match with only 50-100 shooters like the ones I have run my simple mind could grasp it. You know what though, my mind is really not that simple, I have run my own photography business since I got off Uncle Sam's payroll 22 years ago. I have also bought, sold and rented out multiple two family homes. I do understand a bit about profit and loss, much better than English. Warren |
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Steve Koski |
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Posts: 248 (11/08/08 19:58:51) |
Warren,
I've shot at 4 of Ken's ID state IDPA matches. They have been the 50-100 shooter matches you describe. The economics are significantly different with 75 shooters compared to 350. Steve Koski |
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roundgunner |
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Posts: 93 (11/08/08 20:09:57) |
Explain.
Warren |
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freeidaho |
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Posts: 2544 (11/08/08 21:53:01) |
oops double.... Ken Reed
Last Edited By: freeidaho
11/08/08 22:28:25.
Edited 3 times.
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freeidaho |
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Posts: 2545 (11/08/08 22:01:47) |
freeidaho wrote:
Last Edited By: freeidaho
11/08/08 22:29:05.
Edited 2 times.
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- Announcements
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- Reloading
- Knives
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- Stuff For Sale
